Dark Elves a little... poorly designed?

[Green]

I am 111 turns in into a Dark Elves campaign and I must say boy are Dark Elf units boring and similar.

- Dark riders of any type: I get it, light cavalry isn't supposed to be a versatile unit. They are good for chasing off routing enemies. HOWEVER, what's the *** point of having a version with shields then? When will I ever use these guys to charge into archers directly, and even then, heavy cavalry (like Silver Helms) have shields because they might have 2-3 engagements until the battle ends. The relatively high MD value together with the armor Silver Helms have makes a further enhancement by shields actually useful. But these guys? Light cavalry is good ONLY for chasing units and getting a routing charge on an enemy. I don't get why they should waste a roster slot with the shield version. Sure, in marginal cases you will charge into archers, but the additional 2-3 riders you lose by not bringing shields normally don't make a difference.
I like the version with crossbows. It allows you to get on the rear of an enemy unit more quickly and AP is good to bring in additional damage. E.g. you're fighting Chosen, these guys are actually pretty useful. Could maybe use Fire whist Moving (with an accuracy penalty or something to not become OP) but I think they are not bad.

- BleakSwords: These guys are just garbage. In Naggarond, replenishment is so slow early on that losing 60%+ of one of these units to Marauders with Great Weapons (!) means that you either have to re-recruit them or wait 5-6 turns. Both options sound bad with your early game economy. I think they would actually fare well in a 1v1 with Empire Swordsmen, the problem is that all tier1 units in TWW2 are super strong. High Elf Spearmen are insane, Saurus probably eat these guys for breakfast (haven't tested). Skaven obviously lose but you know... Skaven are Skaven.

- Black Ark Corsairs: These guys are the BIGGEST let-down of the entire Dark Elf roster. I had such great hopes for these guys. Since the Dark Elf tier 1 units are below their High Elf counterpart (with the exception of Darkshards with shields, more on that later), I expected these guys to be your generic melee frontliners. My conclusion is that they are able to beat some tier 1-2 troops easily. While High Elf spearmen stand their ground even against better opponents (e.g. Black Guard for a while), these guys with their pathetic 28 MD are unable to have any sustain in combat. Basically mid-to-late game you never want these guys in an army, yet Black Arks offer these as your primary frontliners.

Also, what the point of having them with handbows? A hybrid unit that is good at nothing. Alright.

- Shades: These also make me very angry: WHY do we have 3 different versions of them? Normal, Dual Weapons (!) and Great Weapons. When would I ever want these guys to charge into a unit with high armor? They are skirmishers. Good for taking out warmachines and shooting a little. I would never want these guys to get a rear charge when I could do it with more efficient units (hell, even with Dark Riders), like Black Guard or Cold Ones.

But as I said, having 3 versions of them feels like being cheated on army variety. We basically have 4 skirmishing units so far (3x varieties of Shades and the Handbow Corsairs). They are all very similar and in no circumstance is one of them SIGNIFICANTLY more advantageous over the other.

"But mom, Shades have Stalk and Corsairs don't!"
Stalk is a good mechanic but let's not pretend that it differentiates these units further. It does add some use, yes, but still, these 4 units are very similar in nature.

- Witch Elves: bad all around: high melee attack but no survivability, they melt to artillery/archer fire and the debuff they provide isn't significant enough. I could accept them being a tier2 infantry that takes 1 turn to recruit, but tier 3 AND 2 turns to recruit? Deep disappointment.

- Harpies: wow, ANOTHER skirmishing unit! "But mom, these can fly so they serve a different role than the others!" No, not really.

- Khainite Assassin: average in melee without buffs, I expected this guy to have potential at range. Again, I was disappointed. The meagre 70 range means that you have to do all sorts of maneuvers to position him so that he will shoot the unit you want and not shoot your troops.

- Murderous Prowess: I haven't had a single battle yet where it was a close thing and then Murderous Prowess kicked in and let me win the fight. Most fights are decided already by the time you get this mechanic. Currently this mechanic is underpowered/useless.

Tactic I'm thinking of running currently with Dark Elves:

- Frontline of 5-6x Darkshards with Shields (these guys are great btw and perhaps a little OP)
- Backline of Har Ganeth Executioners/Black Guard (protected on the front by the shields). I would have loved to make it work with Corsairs but it seems that they simply don't have enough sustain (my guess: because of the poor MD value).
- 2x Bolt Throwers

- Some Pikemen to guard the flanks and 2-3 Monstrous units.

I think this can be a viable army. Sadly, it requires a tier5 unit to be viable and even then it's extremely high maintenance.


Thoughts?

[SleepyNarwhalz]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Maschinengewehr:

Opprinnelig skrevet av SleepyNarwhalz:

I disagree, could you explain your reasoning?

2 Skink variants, with the jav variant being the plain better choice. Why even bother with regular cohorts?

Skink skirmishers are trash, which is ok in a way because its not a LM strength. Chameleon ones are ok I guess.

Saurus. 4 "variants" for one unit. Its ridiculous. That and and rampage needs adjusting down to 25% HP imo.

Cold One riders. Bleh..

Temple Guard are decent.

Theres hardly any difference between the terradon rider variants. Overall they're a lackluster unit.

Horned Ones are good but are kinda broken with rampage. Too risky.

The big dinos are ok I guess.

Maz/Slann get outshined by Skink priests, which is hilarious.

If theres anything else I've forgotten its probably because they're so pedestrian..

Ah, thought you meant they were bad in combat. I agree with you somewhat here, although I don't think it's too bad. Really the only major offender in the LM roster for me are the feral units, which could have been handled much better.

[B4ndoGor4]

HE archers and HE archers (light armour) seriousy what's the point If I can just recruit Lothern Sea Guard.

[Enorats]

I use the light armor ones myself. They're basically the bulk of my army. I'm not quite sure why they bothered making two different varients of them.

The reason I don't use the Lothern Sea Guard is because of range. The dedicated archers have half again to double the range. I can actually shoot at Dark Elf archers while they're up on walls in sieges without them even being able to return fire.

[Dixie Normus]

There is a huge difference between spear and club Saurus. One being that elited clubs massacre low armor infantry.

[Green]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Empiro:

I think Dark Elves are way more interesting than High Elves, actually, ever since starting my new game as HE. I won't disagree that having the same unit but slightly different weapons is kind of lame. However, Dark Elves have a good amount of units even despite that.

Dark Riders are alright. The version with shields have higher defense, so even if you're not under missile fire, they still do better in melee.

Darkshards are awesome. It seems like everyone is saying Shades are even better, which is probably true. I didn't use them in my campaign and I didn't have to.

Agree that Bleakswords aren't very good. I prefer using more Dreadspears early on, and then Corsairs a bit later.

Corsairs are pretty decent. Not bad, not great. Hand crossbow version does pretty well in sieges because they can shoot 360 degrees, and can shoot while enemies are up on the walls.

Try using Death Hags instead of the Assassin (who are better on the campaign map). They do way better in combat.

Overall, Dark Elves have one of the most versatile rosters, and have tools to deal with nearly everything, even at low tiers.

The problem I see with Dark Elves is that yes, potentially they can be a hard hitting army, but while High Elves have MP to compensate for their squishiness, winning battle with Dark Elves always means incurring in rather heavy losses no matter which unit you send against which (unless you run cheese comps like 18x Dread Knights and such). Shades are vulnerable to CC and ranged fire. Spearmen aren't nearly as good as the HE counterpart, so Dark Elves lack a solid anvil (I can accept this).

Black Guard, again, seems weaker than the HE counterpart since being able to stay longer in combat means being able to do more maneuvers and getting kills slowly while not dying is more valuable than getting kills fast and losing numbers.

Shades... I must say I haven't tried them and I had dismissed them as subpar. I'll give them a try since many say they are good.

Besides, EVERY single unit except Har Ganeth Executioners and Black Guard has a severe disadvantage. Dread Knights? Cool, armor and hard hitting! But low MD AND the rampage mechanic (I feel that if both these mechanics must stay, rampage needs to activate at 33-40%).

Harpies? Trash of the trash.

Hydra? Potentially amazing yes, very vulnerable to ranged fire like all monsters. Breath attack also has very short range.

Skirmishers? They may be good sure, but an army of only skirmishers is generally bad. I frankly don't see a point in having 3 types of shades, 3 types of dark riders, harpies and black ark corsairs with handbows. They are essentially the same unit.

[Green]

Opprinnelig skrevet av B4ndoGor4:

HE archers and HE archers (light armour) seriousy what's the point If I can just recruit Lothern Sea Guard.

Lothern Sea Guard is slightly less durable in combat. You can notice this if you play HE long enough. The difference is marginal but I wouldn't field an army of only LSG

[Green]

Just lost a battle against AI in campaign (I am playing on Normal the Dark Elves, mind you, because I expected them to be more difficult than HE). The HE brought a lvl9 lord against my lvl27 lord on dragon and tier 3 units max (not even white lions, only Lothern Seaguard, Reavers, Eagles and Bolt Throwers and a few Archers and Spearmen.

I had
Melee lord on Dragon with a lot of Red Perks and a coupld of Yellow ones.
2x Cold One Riders (got decimated by Silver helms in CC), I sincerely don't understand why these guys are only 36 while Silver Helms are 45. Anyway one unit lost to Silver Helms, the other won against Reavers but then it got decimated to halp HP by missile fire and I lost control over them.
2x Bolt Throwers (only useful units in the army).
3x Black Guard of Naggarond (got slaughered by his noble so fast I had trouble believing they had the stats they have - I have 2x pips on the red upgrades of the lord too, mind you). I am pretty sure the High Elf counterpart fare better.
5x Darkshards did nothing against his 55% blocking and longer range.
3x Spearmen guarded the flanks alright and are the reason my bolt throwers survived. Sadly they also got decimated by arrow fire.
1x Witch Elves... I really don't know what to do with this unit.
1x Dark Riders with Crossbows (bad unit to bring against his army full of shields and ACTUALLY LOST TO BOLT THROWER CREWMEN! At the beginning of the fight I had 38ish of them. I don't know how it is possible)

Murderous prowess never kicked in.

Unit count was 20 for my side to like 24 on his side. Long story short, on any total war game this would be an easy battle.

Valiant defeat.

Very nice army. Notice I had tier3+ units and some tier 5 against his tier3 army and a lvl27 lord against a lvl9 which means my army was WAY MORE buffed.


Either HE are overpowered or DE are UP.

[SleepyNarwhalz]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Green:

Opprinnelig skrevet av B4ndoGor4:

HE archers and HE archers (light armour) seriousy what's the point If I can just recruit Lothern Sea Guard.

Lothern Sea Guard is slightly less durable in combat. You can notice this if you play HE long enough. The difference is marginal but I wouldn't field an army of only LSG

They're not actually, they have better defensive stats across the board as well as shields.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Green:

Just lost a battle against AI in campaign (I am playing on Normal the Dark Elves, mind you, because I expected them to be more difficult than HE). The HE brought a lvl9 lord against my lvl27 lord on dragon and tier 3 units max (not even white lions, only Lothern Seaguard, Reavers, Eagles and Bolt Throwers and a few Archers and Spearmen.

I had
Melee lord on Dragon with a lot of Red Perks and a coupld of Yellow ones.
2x Cold One Riders (got decimated by Silver helms in CC), I sincerely don't understand why these guys are only 36 while Silver Helms are 45. Anyway one unit lost to Silver Helms, the other won against Reavers but then it got decimated to halp HP by missile fire and I lost control over them.
2x Bolt Throwers (only useful units in the army).
3x Black Guard of Naggarond (got slaughered by his noble so fast I had trouble believing they had the stats they have - I have 2x pips on the red upgrades of the lord too, mind you). I am pretty sure the High Elf counterpart fare better.
5x Darkshards did nothing against his 55% blocking and longer range.
3x Spearmen guarded the flanks alright and are the reason my bolt throwers survived. Sadly they also got decimated by arrow fire.
1x Witch Elves... I really don't know what to do with this unit.
1x Dark Riders with Crossbows (bad unit to bring against his army full of shields and ACTUALLY LOST TO BOLT THROWER CREWMEN! At the beginning of the fight I had 38ish of them. I don't know how it is possible)

Murderous prowess never kicked in.

Unit count was 20 for my side to like 24 on his side. Long story short, on any total war game this would be an easy battle.

Valiant defeat.

Very nice army. Notice I had tier3+ units and some tier 5 against his tier3 army and a lvl27 lord against a lvl9 which means my army was WAY MORE buffed.


Either HE are overpowered or DE are UP.

It doesn't sound like you played this super well, none of the combat matchups you mentioned that wend badly should have been remotely possible. Cold ones vs silver helms for instance should wind up with cold ones destroying the enemy.

[Vyss A'lare]

High Elves are pretty damn OP. Sea Guard are too good and cheap for what they do with a very high MD when teched/buffed. The main problem with high elves is their armies can be 3/4 ranged viable and still have tanky lines. Those 6 darkshards you brought aren't going to do much vs twice as many sea guard with shields and better range. The armor pen only comes into handy vs high armor units and a DE vs HE matchup prob doesn't have many.

[Green]

Opprinnelig skrevet av SleepyNarwhalz:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Green:

Lothern Sea Guard is slightly less durable in combat. You can notice this if you play HE long enough. The difference is marginal but I wouldn't field an army of only LSG

They're not actually, they have better defensive stats across the board as well as shields.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Green:

Just lost a battle against AI in campaign (I am playing on Normal the Dark Elves, mind you, because I expected them to be more difficult than HE). The HE brought a lvl9 lord against my lvl27 lord on dragon and tier 3 units max (not even white lions, only Lothern Seaguard, Reavers, Eagles and Bolt Throwers and a few Archers and Spearmen.

I had
Melee lord on Dragon with a lot of Red Perks and a coupld of Yellow ones.
2x Cold One Riders (got decimated by Silver helms in CC), I sincerely don't understand why these guys are only 36 while Silver Helms are 45. Anyway one unit lost to Silver Helms, the other won against Reavers but then it got decimated to halp HP by missile fire and I lost control over them.
2x Bolt Throwers (only useful units in the army).
3x Black Guard of Naggarond (got slaughered by his noble so fast I had trouble believing they had the stats they have - I have 2x pips on the red upgrades of the lord too, mind you). I am pretty sure the High Elf counterpart fare better.
5x Darkshards did nothing against his 55% blocking and longer range.
3x Spearmen guarded the flanks alright and are the reason my bolt throwers survived. Sadly they also got decimated by arrow fire.
1x Witch Elves... I really don't know what to do with this unit.
1x Dark Riders with Crossbows (bad unit to bring against his army full of shields and ACTUALLY LOST TO BOLT THROWER CREWMEN! At the beginning of the fight I had 38ish of them. I don't know how it is possible)

Murderous prowess never kicked in.

Unit count was 20 for my side to like 24 on his side. Long story short, on any total war game this would be an easy battle.

Valiant defeat.

Very nice army. Notice I had tier3+ units and some tier 5 against his tier3 army and a lvl27 lord against a lvl9 which means my army was WAY MORE buffed.


Either HE are overpowered or DE are UP.

It doesn't sound like you played this super well, none of the combat matchups you mentioned that wend badly should have been remotely possible. Cold ones vs silver helms for instance should wind up with cold ones destroying the enemy.

Meh, when the battlefield doesn't have a single piece of forest I don't think you would have played better either. I don't know if I mentioned it, he had 3x eagles that helped in those fights at some point.

[Daliena]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Green:

Opprinnelig skrevet av SleepyNarwhalz:

They're not actually, they have better defensive stats across the board as well as shields.


It doesn't sound like you played this super well, none of the combat matchups you mentioned that wend badly should have been remotely possible. Cold ones vs silver helms for instance should wind up with cold ones destroying the enemy.

Meh, when the battlefield doesn't have a single piece of forest I don't think you would have played better either. I don't know if I mentioned it, he had 3x eagles that helped in those fights at some point.

Either I'm counting wrong, repeatedly, or you either only had 18 units or you didn't mention some of your troops. 1 lord, 2 cold ones, 2 bolt throwers, 3 black guard and we're up to 8. 5 darkshards, 13. 3 spearmen, 16. Witch elves and dark riders, 18.

Anyway - Black Guard are elite anti-large, not anti-infantry troops. You want Executioners of Har Ganeth to smack around enemy heavy infantry, so unless that Noble was mounted..

You don't mention it, but if your Darkshards did have shields, they should decimate Lothern Sea Guard once they get in range, no contest whatsoever. If they didn't have shields.. -Why?!-

[Green]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Daliena:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Green:

Meh, when the battlefield doesn't have a single piece of forest I don't think you would have played better either. I don't know if I mentioned it, he had 3x eagles that helped in those fights at some point.

Either I'm counting wrong, repeatedly, or you either only had 18 units or you didn't mention some of your troops. 1 lord, 2 cold ones, 2 bolt throwers, 3 black guard and we're up to 8. 5 darkshards, 13. 3 spearmen, 16. Witch elves and dark riders, 18.

Anyway - Black Guard are elite anti-large, not anti-infantry troops. You want Executioners of Har Ganeth to smack around enemy heavy infantry, so unless that Noble was mounted..

You don't mention it, but if your Darkshards did have shields, they should decimate Lothern Sea Guard once they get in range, no contest whatsoever. If they didn't have shields.. -Why?!-

My bad, you're right. I had a Dark magic sorceress as well. I don't recall what the 20th unit is.

I guess I just played poorly. The big issue I recall is placing 1 of Cold Ones on either flank and expecting them to do at least something. At some point I even sent my lord (on Dragon) to help them. The moment I lost the flank, Reavers and Lothern Sea Guard had a walk in the park on me.

[Empiro]

I had much tougher fights than that (on VH) and came out with a victory, so I have to assume that you're doing something wrong with the matchups. Your army is lacking in anti-infantry, which is a big problem. You don't like Corsairs, but honestly they're pretty good. They have decent armor and are fast, so they can close in on Elven archers without too many casualties.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Green:

Just lost a battle against AI in campaign (I am playing on Normal the Dark Elves, mind you, because I expected them to be more difficult than HE). The HE brought a lvl9 lord against my lvl27 lord on dragon and tier 3 units max (not even white lions, only Lothern Seaguard, Reavers, Eagles and Bolt Throwers and a few Archers and Spearmen.

I had
Melee lord on Dragon with a lot of Red Perks and a coupld of Yellow ones.
2x Cold One Riders (got decimated by Silver helms in CC), I sincerely don't understand why these guys are only 36 while Silver Helms are 45. Anyway one unit lost to Silver Helms, the other won against Reavers but then it got decimated to halp HP by missile fire and I lost control over them.

Your Cold One Knights ought to have made mince meat out of Silver Helms unless they had like 5 units of Silver Helms, or you somehow had them facing away when they got charged. Cold One Knights have AP and anti-large. Silver Helms have neither.

2x Bolt Throwers (only useful units in the army).

Definitely one of the best units around. In my experience, against elves, your best targets are their Swordmasters and then their archers (starting with Sea Guard /w Shields).

3x Black Guard of Naggarond (got slaughered by his noble so fast I had trouble believing they had the stats they have - I have 2x pips on the red upgrades of the lord too, mind you). I am pretty sure the High Elf counterpart fare better.

I don't know how fast is fast, but don't clump up. Sending one unit after the other is better than everyone getting each others' way. You should have sent the other units after their archers or to support your Knights. These guys are anti-large. Also, what was your lord doing in all this? A lord mounted on a dragon would easily beat a noble.

5x Darkshards did nothing against his 55% blocking and longer range.

You shouldn't be shooting into a crowd of friendlies like that. Your Darkshards probably killed half of your Black Guard.

Shoot their (unshielded) archers, Silver Helms, or Eagles. If all they have are Sea Guard, then definitely your army composition is weak against them. You need those Corsairs.

3x Spearmen guarded the flanks alright and are the reason my bolt throwers survived. Sadly they also got decimated by arrow fire.

1x Witch Elves... I really don't know what to do with this unit.

Charge their archers or distract their lord. Use them against enemies with AP (they don't have armor anyways). I agree they're not the best to use.

1x Dark Riders with Crossbows (bad unit to bring against his army full of shields and ACTUALLY LOST TO BOLT THROWER CREWMEN! At the beginning of the fight I had 38ish of them. I don't know how it is possible)

I don't know either, but my guess is that they were under fire from archers or something. You should charge these guys into ranged units.

Either HE are overpowered or DE are UP.

Neither. HE can present a good challenge, but Dark Elves have an answer to everything the High Elves have.

[Jerroser]

I'm just completed a campaign with the Dark Elves and found the incredably easy to play with. I tended to rely quite a lot on Darkshards with Shields which counter most archers pretty well, since they can much more easily take missle damge and they very good at dealing with armoured units.

Witch Elves and Death Hags are absolue beasts when they get in to melee and in my main army I kept a very powerful Death Hag who managed to easily beat up Tyrion on multiple occasions. The thing to remeber is to hold them back from the front line and then send them in to attack enemy infantry once the main lines have engadged.

Yes Blackguard are slightly weaker the the Pheonix Guard but can make mince meat out of all large units and monsters. Pheonix Guard can be easily wiped out by Darkshards before they even get close enough to attack since they are so valunerable at range.

Cold One Knights are fairly decent but not overwhelming, in a straigh up fight they should easily win against sliver helms so I'm not really sure what you did wrong. But once they do go in to rampage mode it can be a little hard to keep them alive.

As for core troops, I find Dreadspears to be much better at holding the line than Bleakswords. Mostly becasue I just need them to hold their ground while the higher tier units deal the majorty of damage. Also not a massive fan of the Coursirs units that much though and would rather just stick with the spears.

[Ms O'Horné]

That's funny cause DE in the games current state is the powerhouse, Can't decide if HE or Lizards are after that, they both have their pros and cons. I'd probably say high elves cause they got excellent units and magic, ontop of that they pretty much control what happens on the map in terms of diplomacy. Skaven imo needs some tweaking, they are not persay bad but you know :)