Nagash lore question!

[JAY_vs_GAME]

I'm a big Warhammer fan but I'll admit that I heavily favor my Lizardmen when it comes to lore. I read everything I can get my hands on! Since the Tomb Kings it seems is a very real possibility for DLC I decided to study up on them. Reading about the rise and fall of Nehekhara and it's a great read! Really getting sucked into it! But I read something that made me do a double take. Reading about the death of Nagash and how he more or less destroyed the entire kingdom out of spite.. How Alcadizaar made the killing blow. The line that got me like "Whaaaa" was...
"Alcadizaar, the last mortal king of Nehekhara, was mysteriously freed from his prison below Nagashizzar by a group of hunched, heavily cloaked, rat-like creatures."
So the Skaven are behind the death of Nagash?? Why would they free Alcadizaar to do the deed instead of doing it themselves? Or why theyd even interfere at all? Did they figure that if Nagash was to succeed in his "Great Ritual" that he would be too mighty for the Skaven horde to ever conquer the world above? Help me understand!!! lol Please and thank you! =D

[Daliena]

Skaven tend to prefer to keep hidden from those who don't already know they exist, and Alcadizaar presented a perfect pawn, or at least that's my guess.

As to why they interfered, they figured correctly in that. Nagash is one of, if not the only, force that has ever fought the Under-Empire to a standstill when they actually put in effort rather than just focusing more on backstabbing eachother. And no surprise either, as Nagash's ultimate goal is to turn every living being on the entire planet into undead to starve the Chaos Gods and become the sole god himself.

[wwolf69]

That was pure greed. Nagash occupied a mountain full of warpstone and take it all for himself. And killed all skaven who was against it. There was no "Save the world from dead-thing, yes-yes!", there was simply a war for resources.

[Toaster Maximus]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Skaven tend to prefer to keep hidden from those who don't already know they exist, and Alcadizaar presented a perfect pawn, or at least that's my guess.

As to why they interfered, they figured correctly in that. Nagash is one of, if not the only, force that has ever fought the Under-Empire to a standstill when they actually put in effort rather than just focusing more on backstabbing eachother. And no surprise either, as Nagash's ultimate goal is to turn every living being on the entire planet into undead to starve the Chaos Gods and become the sole god himself.

It came down to simplely not wanting to die, like most times skaven stop backstab its either direct from their god or a matter of not wanting to dead.

Basically they got nervous when reports came back that the dead Nagash was rising started out numbing the living and even the hordes of the under empire.

But yeah they needed a direct pawn something expanded to wield the fellblade and he was perfect nothing to live for and hatred for the necromancer burning in his heart. Memembers of the council even died has they aided him indirectly with their magic to deflect some of Nagash's foul magic.

[JAY_vs_GAME]

All great answers, thank you very much!
Everyone on these forums have been very helpful filling in the gaps in my knowledge of lore! Thanks again!

[Horus Lupercal]

Nagash had a fortress on a mountain of warpstone the rats wanted, too bad even after his "death" he was more than powerful enough to keep them away.

[Avenger93]

The reasson they used alcadizar was simple: the warpstone blade, Fellblade, would kill ANYONE wielding it in a short ammount of time through sheer corruption and mutation. So while the skaven had no problem using massive ammounts of skaven slaves to transport the blade, no respectable eshin assassin or any warlord or grey seer actualy wanted to wield that ♥♥♥♥ against nagash, especialy when they were all so affraid of him the great clans had actualy united. far simpler to let a silly man-thing use the sword, kill nagash and then die.

[Alpharius]

Read the novels instead of the wiki's. All that happens in the Rise of Nagash trilogy and is well explained in those books. I read them last year and they are great. The Necromancer story in the Black Plague trilogy also brings up things from the Rise of Nagash books, so it's a good follow up read.

[Karsk]

Originally posted by JAY_vs_GAME:

I'm a big Warhammer fan but I'll admit that I heavily favor my Lizardmen when it comes to lore. I read everything I can get my hands on! Since the Tomb Kings it seems is a very real possibility for DLC I decided to study up on them. Reading about the rise and fall of Nehekhara and it's a great read! Really getting sucked into it! But I read something that made me do a double take. Reading about the death of Nagash and how he more or less destroyed the entire kingdom out of spite.. How Alcadizaar made the killing blow. The line that got me like "Whaaaa" was...
"Alcadizaar, the last mortal king of Nehekhara, was mysteriously freed from his prison below Nagashizzar by a group of hunched, heavily cloaked, rat-like creatures."
So the Skaven are behind the death of Nagash?? Why would they free Alcadizaar to do the deed instead of doing it themselves? Or why theyd even interfere at all? Did they figure that if Nagash was to succeed in his "Great Ritual" that he would be too mighty for the Skaven horde to ever conquer the world above? Help me understand!!! lol Please and thank you! =D

When the Skaven saw the horde that was literally millions upon millions of Undead they realized that Nagash was enacting a spell that was raising an army that if completed would give him a force that was unstoppable. Even the Skaven would be outnumbered.

The whole forging of Fellblade, giving it to Alcadizaar, and forging a Psychic link to him and even going so far as to use that link to guide him to Nagash and even PROTECT him during their duel even at the cost of several Lords of Decay dying in thr process of blocking some of Nagash' attacks should tell you just how scared ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ they were.


The sight of the Undead Army Nagash was raising, tis army was SO ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ MASSIVE that the ENTIRE COUNCIL OF 13 AND THE WHOLE ORDER OF GREY SEERS ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ COOPERATED.

AFAIK it's literally THE ONLY TIME the Skaven leadership have united towards a single goal on their own without the direct intervention of the Horned Rat.


Skaven only really work together when they are scared of a stronger foe. This foe was so strong that all the Skaven leadership decided to work together. They realized that they would probably be the first target of Nagash's (almost) numberless Undead horde. Even if they weren't the first target they were smart enough to know that eventually he would attack them.


The Council of 13 through the Eshin intelligence network realized that Nagash was channeling so much energy from Shyish (the Wind of Death) that he was raising an army so large that he would be able to kill everyone. By everyone I mean EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!


That was his goal, raise an Undead army of such numbers with so much Necromancy behind it that he would literally be able to kill everyone and everything in the Warhammer World.

Once he had done that Nagash would use his Necromancy to raise EVERYONE from the dead as his slaves and the entire world would be enslaved to his will.


Again consider how unbelievably selfish the Skaven are in all circumstances. Then consider how scared ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ the Skaven leadership were that they were not only willing to work together and not even consider stabbing each other in the back, but SACRIFICE THEIR LIVES in order to stop this guy.


Scared out of their ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ minds bro. Also keep in mind that these Skaven were probably centuries old since they could use as much warpstone as they wanted.

I love this story because the freakin' SKAVEN end up saving the entire world!

[Alpharius]

Originally posted by Dedmosh:

Originally posted by JAY_vs_GAME:

I'm a big Warhammer fan but I'll admit that I heavily favor my Lizardmen when it comes to lore. I read everything I can get my hands on! Since the Tomb Kings it seems is a very real possibility for DLC I decided to study up on them. Reading about the rise and fall of Nehekhara and it's a great read! Really getting sucked into it! But I read something that made me do a double take. Reading about the death of Nagash and how he more or less destroyed the entire kingdom out of spite.. How Alcadizaar made the killing blow. The line that got me like "Whaaaa" was...
"Alcadizaar, the last mortal king of Nehekhara, was mysteriously freed from his prison below Nagashizzar by a group of hunched, heavily cloaked, rat-like creatures."
So the Skaven are behind the death of Nagash?? Why would they free Alcadizaar to do the deed instead of doing it themselves? Or why theyd even interfere at all? Did they figure that if Nagash was to succeed in his "Great Ritual" that he would be too mighty for the Skaven horde to ever conquer the world above? Help me understand!!! lol Please and thank you! =D

When the Skaven saw the horde that was literally millions upon millions of Undead they realized that Nagash was enacting a spell that was raising an army that if completed would give him a force that was unstoppable. Even the Skaven would be outnumbered.

The whole forging of Fellblade, giving it to Alcadizaar, and forging a Psychic link to him and even going so far as to use that link to guide him to Nagash and even PROTECT him during their duel even at the cost of several Lords of Decay dying in thr process of blocking some of Nagash' attacks should tell you just how scared ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ they were.


The sight of the Undead Army Nagash was raising, tis army was SO ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ MASSIVE that the ENTIRE COUNCIL OF 13 AND THE WHOLE ORDER OF GREY SEERS ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ COOPERATED.

AFAIK it's literally THE ONLY TIME the Skaven leadership have united towards a single goal on their own without the direct intervention of the Horned Rat.


Skaven only really work together when they are scared of a stronger foe. This foe was so strong that all the Skaven leadership decided to work together. They realized that they would probably be the first target of Nagash's (almost) numberless Undead horde. Even if they weren't the first target they were smart enough to know that eventually he would attack them.


The Council of 13 through the Eshin intelligence network realized that Nagash was channeling so much energy from Shyish (the Wind of Death) that he was raising an army so large that he would be able to kill everyone. By everyone I mean EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!


That was his goal, raise an Undead army of such numbers with so much Necromancy behind it that he would literally be able to kill everyone and everything in the Warhammer World.

Once he had done that Nagash would use his Necromancy to raise EVERYONE from the dead as his slaves and the entire world would be enslaved to his will.


Again consider how unbelievably selfish the Skaven are in all circumstances. Then consider how scared ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ the Skaven leadership were that they were not only willing to work together and not even consider stabbing each other in the back, but SACRIFICE THEIR LIVES in order to stop this guy.


Scared out of their ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ minds bro. Also keep in mind that these Skaven were probably centuries old since they could use as much warpstone as they wanted.

I love this story because the freakin' SKAVEN end up saving the entire world!

That's either outdated lore or made up.

[Karsk]

Originally posted by GKMoggleMog:

Originally posted by Dedmosh:

When the Skaven saw the horde that was literally millions upon millions of Undead they realized that Nagash was enacting a spell that was raising an army that if completed would give him a force that was unstoppable. Even the Skaven would be outnumbered.

The whole forging of Fellblade, giving it to Alcadizaar, and forging a Psychic link to him and even going so far as to use that link to guide him to Nagash and even PROTECT him during their duel even at the cost of several Lords of Decay dying in thr process of blocking some of Nagash' attacks should tell you just how scared ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ they were.


The sight of the Undead Army Nagash was raising, tis army was SO ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ MASSIVE that the ENTIRE COUNCIL OF 13 AND THE WHOLE ORDER OF GREY SEERS ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ COOPERATED.

AFAIK it's literally THE ONLY TIME the Skaven leadership have united towards a single goal on their own without the direct intervention of the Horned Rat.


Skaven only really work together when they are scared of a stronger foe. This foe was so strong that all the Skaven leadership decided to work together. They realized that they would probably be the first target of Nagash's (almost) numberless Undead horde. Even if they weren't the first target they were smart enough to know that eventually he would attack them.


The Council of 13 through the Eshin intelligence network realized that Nagash was channeling so much energy from Shyish (the Wind of Death) that he was raising an army so large that he would be able to kill everyone. By everyone I mean EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!


That was his goal, raise an Undead army of such numbers with so much Necromancy behind it that he would literally be able to kill everyone and everything in the Warhammer World.

Once he had done that Nagash would use his Necromancy to raise EVERYONE from the dead as his slaves and the entire world would be enslaved to his will.


Again consider how unbelievably selfish the Skaven are in all circumstances. Then consider how scared ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ the Skaven leadership were that they were not only willing to work together and not even consider stabbing each other in the back, but SACRIFICE THEIR LIVES in order to stop this guy.


Scared out of their ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ minds bro. Also keep in mind that these Skaven were probably centuries old since they could use as much warpstone as they wanted.

I love this story because the freakin' SKAVEN end up saving the entire world!

That's either outdated lore or made up.

That's a grudgin boi

Edit: It's not out of date, and it's in keeping with lore for both Skaven and Nagash. Consistent with Skaven behavior, consistent with the goal of Nagash and the only differences in later versions are minor changes not the motivations and major events which is what I tried to cover.

AFAIK the only real changes made to the story were that instead of Nagash being attacked by the Nehekarran dead who were unable to reach the Nehekarran afterlife bc Nagash destroyed the Sacred Flames that were the source of their covenant between the people of Khemri and their gods, the newer lore said that the Fellblade literally ate away at his spirit so that Nagash got weaker every time he resurrected and until the (♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥) End Times he was unable to reach the level of power he ahd befoer Alcadizaar killed him. Whether that's because the ghosts of the Nehekarrans he murdered and prevented from reaching their afterlife were attacking him every time he died or bc the Fellblade was leeching away his power doesn't change that the Skaven did it bc they were ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ terrified of Nagash and the spell he was casting and say Alcadizaar as a useful tool since no Skaven was brave or strong enough to take on Nagash directly.

[Ysthrall]

Re: Dedmosh's reply.

Eh, it's lore, it sounds good and works fine. Given that the lore and backstory was changed by GW every 2 or 3 years, does it matter so much?

I do love the point that Nagash (their foe) and The Great Horned Rat (their god) are the only two individuals ever to unite the Skaven.

I'll stick with the 4th ed Undead army book for my Nagash lore, thanks.

Until he turns up in game.

[Darkaiser]

Originally posted by Horus Lupercal:

Nagash had a fortress on a mountain of warpstone the rats wanted, too bad even after his "death" he was more than powerful enough to keep them away.

Not true. After his untimely demise, the Skaven infested Nagashizzar and mined the warpstone almost out before Nagash returned. He came back, chased them out and they let him because the remaining warpstone wasn't worth the effort any more.

[Xhal]

If you read the books of Nagash.

He found a mountain full of warpstone and was mining it to power his magic.

Skaven arrived and tried to take the mountain.

War erupts between Nagash and the skaven for hundreds of years.

Eventually the skaven decided the war was too costly and sue for peace. They make peace with nagash and trade with him. They provide him with slaves and ore in exchange for warpstone. I believe the rate was 1 ton of ore or slaves for 1 pound of warpstone.

Nagash builds a massive army and invades nehekara. His army is defeated and destroyed by an alliance formed by alcazzidar.

Nagash enlist the skaven to deliver enchanted runestones in Nehekara's water supply and complete a ritual that kills everyone in the country except alcazzidar.

Another ritual raises everyone that ever died in the country as the tomb kings.

Skaven being skaven watch nagash closely. See him take alcazzidar as a prisoner. They forge a powerful weapon dubbed powerful enough to kill a god.

They free alcazzidar and give him the god killer.

Alcazzidar 1 shot Nagash.

The end.

[Luprical]

Is it just me or are to many people saying the skaven would be outnumbered by nagash. I mean when u read that his ritual was going to turn every LIVING THING undead then how would the skaven be outnumbered? there would be no skaven cause the skaven are alive. so by the ritual they would all be undead afterwords. people talking about them fearing to be outnumbered confuse me. thought it was fear of all of them dieing to ritual.

[Kaia]

Long before there were badly written novels obeying GW's cardinal rule of 'subtly in story telling is for whimps, make everyone 50' tall and some degree of a living god' there was just some fluff in the rule books.

About 1300 years before Sigmar was even born, Nagash ruled Cripple Peak. The Skaven learned of a giant warpstone meteor there and decided they wanted it, problem being Nagash was using it first.

They tried their typical 'emerge from below and overwhelm him' trick (it worked on the dwarves okay) but Nagash wasn't caught between a rock and a hard place isolated from reinforcement.

An unbelivably large war of attrition stretched on for a hundred years - the Skaven slaughtered Nagash' mortal subject in their cities, Nagash came back with legions of the dead and the whole thing stalemated. Nagash could never drive the skaven back and get on with what he was even mining the warpstone FOR (this again was before Nagash was retconned into a god of infinite power who could just snap his fingers and turn the entire world into undead...) and the skaven couldn't gain the upper hand with their own dead rising against them.

Nagash offered a pact, because as mentioned he had things he wanted to be doing - not stuck fighting Skaven forever. They'd help him with his evil plans and he'd give them warpstone.

The council reluctantly agreed, but never really gave up the idea that the warpstone was theirs by rights. And spent the next few years digging under Cripple Peak trying to steal it. And Nagash had every intention of exterminating the vexsome ratmen with the aforementioned cunning plan.

The Skaven kept spying on Nagash and learned that the ritual he was working on was going to raise millions of undead in the south and they'd certainly be the first target of the world's largest army.

Since they couldn't trust a single skaven to have the nerve to attack Nagash head on and they weren't about to risk their own necks the lords of decay struck upon the idea of releasing and arming the young prince at the heart of Nagash' ritual. They also theorised that if the assassin didn't need to survive the endeavour, they could make the weapon even more deadly.

So they took a stolen dwarven magic sword, hammered as much warpstone into it as they could and made it so they could gestalt through the wielder and counterspell Nagash' magic. He killed Nagash and staggered off to his doom, the skaven gathered up the bits of Really Dead Nagash and threw him into the warpstone forges.

Of course he came back about a thousand years later and retook the stronghold. The skaven went right back to stalemating him before realising that most of the Warpstone was gone now, Nagash was irrevocably diminished and that the entire thing wasn't worth the effort.