[Lore question] Are the VC good guys or bad guys?

[Warnoise]

I read the End times lore, I am confused. They (and the Tomb Kings? (undead)) have contributed to the protection of the world (other than mannfred who mistakenly caused it) more than the other factions...Am i missing something or they are the good guys here?

[Macros]

Originally posted by GENIUS WWE:

Originally posted by The Malachite Stalagmite:

Nah, that's 40k. Warhammer Fantasy has some genuine heroes to accentuate the grimdark through contrast.

I agree with Koranis. If you are human, you either fight for the survival of your people or your ambition. Dwarves, oaths and pride. Elves, their civilization. If you are a vampire in the warhammer universe, you fight for continual existance. One or two martyre is not uncommon, but they are less than 1% of the warhammer fantasy world.

On the other hand, many factions in Warhammer can and do collaborate and cohexist together. And sure, there are always self-interested justifications, but it doesn't change the fact that their morality can be defined as good-ish overall.

Koranis sentence could be technically true, but it would apply to the real world too, then (minus the chaos servants... I think). At the very least, WHFB is a much lighter shade of grey than 40k.

[Jarges]

Originally posted by Warnoise:

I read the End times lore, I am confused. \

Thats it, right there. It was your first mistake, reading end times. That whole event was a joke, as much as what followed it. Good or evil, thats the matter of perspective. They protected the old world just becuz it was about to die, everyone protected it form chaos, it does not make everyone "good".

[Reaver79]

Nice as their new models are (detail wise) they simply look terrible design wise..

[Harmania]

Originally posted by Morrtanius:

Good and evil are generally relative. Just because the VC/TK aid the forces of order doesn't nearly mean they are anywhere near morally 'good', though some of the vampires and tomb kings certainly have the capacity to be (Khalida of the Tomb Kings, Vlad and Jerek of the VCs come to mind, with Vlad being more of a wildcard).

The uncomfortable bottom line is that no morality is self-evident or objective; you set down certain axioms and work from there. Those axioms come from nothing more than intuition. Now, whilst everyone has the same intuition, that's fine; but if someone comes along with an honestly different intuition of the basic principles, you don't really have any moral right to say that they're wrong; you can just say 'I feel differently' and, if they threaten you, defend yourself.

I love you, marry me.

[Morrtanius]

Originally posted by Laughing Mary:

Originally posted by Morrtanius:

Good and evil are generally relative. Just because the VC/TK aid the forces of order doesn't nearly mean they are anywhere near morally 'good', though some of the vampires and tomb kings certainly have the capacity to be (Khalida of the Tomb Kings, Vlad and Jerek of the VCs come to mind, with Vlad being more of a wildcard).

The uncomfortable bottom line is that no morality is self-evident or objective; you set down certain axioms and work from there. Those axioms come from nothing more than intuition. Now, whilst everyone has the same intuition, that's fine; but if someone comes along with an honestly different intuition of the basic principles, you don't really have any moral right to say that they're wrong; you can just say 'I feel differently' and, if they threaten you, defend yourself.

I love you, marry me.

I love you too, dear.

[Gangalugar]

Simply put:


Vladdo is actually a decent chap at the end of the day.


Mannfred's a wan-ker.

[Xenos]

It depends. Vlad isn't really any worse than your average medieval nobleman. Stern, ambitious, occasionally cruel, but mostly fair. Abhorash has a very strong sense of honor, so in a way he's like a Bretonnian knight but more on the martial side. Mannfred is an evil, power-hungry wizard stereotype, but not evil in a sadistic way like Dark Elves, just the-end-justifies-the-means. Konrad is a psychopath. On the whole, I won't call them evil. They play around with some very dangerous things, though.

Warhammer is different from D&D, in that D&D has objective good and evil. Like, evil is a thing in Faerun, there are whole planes of existence made of evil. Undead are evil because they tap into that energy, regardless of their morality. In Warhammer Chaos, in its simplest form, is just raw magic without any inherent quality. So for example Death Magic isn't evil per se.

[3MBG]

Complete Bastard tier - Chaos, Skaven
Mostly evil tier - Dark Elves, Chaos Dwarves, Norsca, Beastmen, Tomb Kings
Evil but not complete bastards tier - Orks, Ogres, Vampire Counts
Isolationist jerks tier - High Elf, Dwarves, Wood Elves
Mostly good but also capable of being jerks tier - Bretonia, Empire, Lizardmen
Be good or die tier - Kislev


I'm sure cases could be made to bump most of these up or down one category. But that's a starter.

[Xenos]

Originally posted by Vomkrieg:

Complete Bastard tier - Chaos, Skaven
Mostly evil tier - Dark Elves, Chaos Dwarves, Norsca, Beastmen, Tomb Kings
Evil but not complete bastards tier - Orks, Ogres, Vampire Counts
Isolationist jerks tier - High Elf, Dwarves, Wood Elves
Mostly good but also capable of being jerks tier - Bretonia, Empire, Lizardmen
Be good or die tier - Kislev


I'm sure cases could be made to bump most of these up or down one category. But that's a starter.

Lizardmen are neither evil nor good. Their way of thinking is said to be so alien that warm-blooded races can't even understand it.

[Toaster Maximus]

They are just power hungry dudes/ladies with god complexes,

[3MBG]

Originally posted by Xenos:

Lizardmen are neither evil nor good. Their way of thinking is said to be so alien that warm-blooded races can't even understand it.

Yeah, but "the plan" for the most part, involves not having the world consumed by chaos. So while they can be alien and weird, their end goals tend towards keeping the world from being turned into a hellscape.

[Hannibal Barca]

I would say they fit into Lawful evil if we use d&d ruleset, They have a "court" in which they adhere to but they manipulate it for their own self-gains and are not above murder, which is by the book definition of lawful evil. These are creature that didnt want to die so they accepted the blood kiss, They are the last beings that want to the end of world by Chaos.

[Gangalugar]

Originally posted by Vomkrieg:

Complete Bastard tier - Chaos, Skaven
Mostly evil tier - Dark Elves, Chaos Dwarves, Norsca, Beastmen, Tomb Kings
Evil but not complete bastards tier - Orks, Ogres, Vampire Counts
Isolationist jerks tier - High Elf, Dwarves, Wood Elves
Mostly good but also capable of being jerks tier - Bretonia, Empire, Lizardmen
Be good or die tier - Kislev


I'm sure cases could be made to bump most of these up or down one category. But that's a starter.

Norsca is not universally evil. Not even by a long shot.

[Glowskelly]

They are, aside from the elixir's effects, just humance, henceforth they are as varied as the living. Some are butthurt hobos, others supa dupa wizards (with no sense of right and wrong, as befits their kind), MUH VALOUR knights and illuminati-like conspirators. There are also some who are totally bonkers (see Konrad), well-meaning (Vlad and company) or just ambitionless and willing to do anything to be left alone (like Genevieve, but stuff hits the fan for her eventually as well).

All in all, they are one of the most inconsistent factions alignment-wise, ranging from pirates to drunkard not-Russians to the occasional Chaos worshipper. Their role in your story could be almost any, so they are essentially Your Dudes: the Faction.

[Glowskelly]

Originally posted by Xenos:

It depends. Vlad isn't really any worse than your average medieval nobleman. Stern, ambitious, occasionally cruel, but mostly fair. Abhorash has a very strong sense of honor, so in a way he's like a Bretonnian knight but more on the martial side. Mannfred is an evil, power-hungry wizard stereotype, but not evil in a sadistic way like Dark Elves, just the-end-justifies-the-means. Konrad is a psychopath. On the whole, I won't call them evil. They play around with some very dangerous things, though.

I'd say Konrad is an aggressive schizo. Which reminds me of Marius Leitdorf and his madness after he had an encounter with the Dee Ones. My theory is something Lovecraftian messed with von Carstein as well some centuries before.