High Elves vs Bretonnia

[Cipher]

These two factions are my favourite by flavour, and I enjoy playing both - however, I've noticed a small problem with Bretonnia, that might need fixing later.
High elves do everything Bretonnia can, but better.

They obviously have far superior foot troops, but that is to be expected, white lions chop up foot squires with ease, peasant archers pale in comparison to elven ones - but that's no problem, filthy peasants should suck in battle.

However, high-end elven cavalry, the dragon princes, also trump both mounted grail units of Bretonnia, and Silver Helms are definitely up to par with Knights of the Realm, only slightly worse. Ellyrian Reavers & Archers are also far better than Knights Errant for the light cavalry role. They do have half their armour, but they cost less, have vanguard deployment and are faster. You might say they're not intended for the same purpose, but really, they are - not because Knights Errant aren't used for other roles than light cavalry, but because they can't, since their stats aren't very good. This makes them into a flanking light cav, which ellyrian units are better at.
All Bretonnian cavalry has for it is an anti-large trait on some of them, which is compensated for by the fact that Bretonnia generally can't kill anything with armour.

The elves also seem to have air superiority. They have far more aerial options, and a star dragon definitely outclasses some hippogryph knights, since they're very well matched "1"v1 and the dragon also has a very strong breath attack. Phoenixes are also very solid. You could argue that Bretonnian air units are generally much faster, but that doesn't do much since they still can't retreat from melee if stuck in it, and since they're flying they'll be seen coming from a mile away, which means you'll have a hard time moving them to somewhere they won't get swamped. Bretonnian air is more of a "shock" air rather than "get in and stay" air, but dragons can do both with the power of their breath attack serving as shock play.

Elves also seem to have better artillery - although not magical, but that is rarely used anyways.

So, to sum it all up, the elves seem to be either on par or much better from all angles when compared with Bretonnia. They might not be straight up better in all cases, but the fact that they're better in a lot makes them outclass Bretonnia completely.

I think Bretonnia could use some buffs. They should atleast have meaningful cavalry, even if cavalry is generally bad in this game. What do you think?

[Voxrox]

Well, Elves ARE better than humans by any means...and the whole knight-schtick the Bretonnians have is actually copied from the High Elves anyway (all of Bretonnia was colonized HE-Land, until the dwarfs got stupid and destroyed it all for no reason, as usual...)

Also Bretonnia is, well, kind of not really a "true" faction, as they never got the love they deserved in Table Top...so CA did the best they could to at least make them somewhat competetive...

But I haven't really compared their cav and all. Brets have some more variety (HE don't realy have two handed Knights of horse, Grail Knights NEVER tire, the Wedge formation)...

Who really could use a buff are Cold One Dread Knights...but that'S another story ^^

[✠ SandMan]

Originally posted by Voxrox:

destroyed it all for no reason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjHclWPVij0

[Shandor]

That was already a Problem in the Tabletop. Thats why Bretonia didnt have much players.
I dont know if they didnt get a new book because of the few players or if they only had so few players because they didnt get a new book.

But if you wanted to play a Knight army you played Empire. If you wanted to play a Cav Heavy Army you played Wood- High or Darkelves.. or again Empire. (Elves in End Times had the best Cav. Ever exist in Warhammer and was unmatched)

The only Thing the Bretonias got ahead of all others was the Pegasi Units. Other Factions had single Pegasus Models but no full Pegasi Units.

But as a Faction that is made for Knights fighting in melee the Bretonians just didnt it very good.
In theory the Lance formation was cool. But you just could place 40 Witchelves infront of 3 Units of each 20 Knights and let the Knights charge them.. they just got slaugethered in one turn and the rest of them ran..

Back to your Topic: High and Darkelves are Elite Armies. They should be better then others. Thats what Elite Armies do. They are expensive and low on numbers but every one is a Specialist and Good in his Job.

[Rogat]

Well, there is supposed to be a foundation patch for all the old world races to keep them on par with the new factions.

Expect a balance patch soon for everyone.

[Voxrox]

Originally posted by ✠ SandMan:

Originally posted by Voxrox:

destroyed it all for no reason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjHclWPVij0

Pft, it was a friggin BEARD! Only hobos don't shave, and only dwarfs would start a world war over such a little joke...

[richardleitch5]

unless the lore has changed (and it probably have) the dwarfs dint know about the elf splitting into high/dark and the dark side abused this to raid and kill the little guys till they tried one last diplomatic attempt then went "sod the knife ears" so war happened.

[Toby Larone]

A dwarf beard is everything you know, it's not the age of the dwarf that matters it's the lenght of the beard that's why cuttign a dwarfs beard destroys that dwarfs social standing which means...

IT GET'S IN THE BOOK

the dwarfs won the war of Vengeance

[The Hat]

Yeah a Bretonnia vs high elf direct matchup doesn't go well.
Vs Skaven Bretonnia would do better.

That's not really the point though, every race has its hard match ups and easier match ups.

For me the HE are still the strongest faction in the game at present, not better than each of them individually but overall they are very strong, whereas Bretonnia need a buff. That's a fair summary.

[Empiro]

Generally speaking, balance is about a side's combined arms. For example, Quarrelers will beat a unit of Glade Guard, but it doesn't mean that Dwarves have the best archers.

Bretonnia have the most diverse set of cavalry. They have stuff that can charge, stuff that can hold the line, stuff that can fly, and so on, so they're still masters of cavalry.

Also, don't forget that Bretonnia's cavalry all have bonus versus large, so I think they'd do pretty well in a cavalry duel. In SP, you can also get the Lady's Blessing so they have physical resistance like the Dragon Princes.

Grail Knights also don't suffer from fatigue, and in long battles that can make a huge difference.

[Big Boom Boom]

You wot m8? Grail Companion is one of the best melee cavalry, up there with Chaos Knight and Blood Knight same as the Lore. Very high stat, physical dmg resistance, NO vigor loss and magical attack.

Also they have wicked formation for charges. All other knights are not good in melee, but excel in cycle charge.

[gachi is manly]

Questing Knights are still pretty awesome and one of the things that few races possess: armor piercing and decent attack/melee stats on a Cavalry that's not "top tier" expensive like Demis.

Brettonia Grail Knights and Guardians probably could use some minor buffs, though. Even at the expense of making them more expensive. They're already quite good but if anything on the roster deserves to be Bret's trump card, it's these guys. Lorewise they're pretty godly, and if Bretonnia actually did end up getting updated to current edition in TT, they'd likely rival the best Cav.

[Big Boom Boom]

"These guys" are no better than Chaos Knight/Blood Knight. In fact it's claimed Blood Knight own both Chaos/Grail. They are already better when fighting a protracted battle due to NO Vigour Loss. Even Undead is tired but Grail Knight/Guardians don't.

[Beached Walrus]

Brettonia have slightly better cavalry options i feel. Elves have 3 in total. However the elite elf foot troops make it hard for the Brettonians to counter them, Considereing phoenix guard, spearmen and lothern seaguard are direct counters to their cavalry. Honestly wish it was easier to field more supporting peasant armies. They shouldn't cost much and basically should be almost expendable. The mechanic they have actually hurts them way to much.

[Sultschiem]

Questing Knights should Rip their Cav a new one, after all they have no serious armor-piercing.

Not to mention that Bretonnia has Cheap Halberds, which High Elves lack.

Also keep in mind martial prowess...if you can make them lose that fast, you can win, so Rearcharges and grinding after you got them low AS WELL AS POISON are worth a lot.



Your flyers should be good at dealing with phoenix, eagles and up to moondragon, but yeah to get rid of stardragons, you need a goonsquat of at least a lord and 1-2 paladins in your mix to get them down RELATIVELY quick.

[Kolopaper]

Originally posted by $Gambler$:

peasant archers pale in comparison to elven ones - but that's no problem, filthy peasants should suck in battle.

Nominee for best line of the month