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- magic (its impossible to make a proper magic with m2tw engine);
- different racial mechanics;
- quests (there were just a few event based "quests" in cow);
- graphics + unique models;
- flying units;
cow:
- economy (buildings, resources) for civilized factions (economy in tww is like 5% compared to cow);
- list of available factions;
- a lot more provinces;
- armies not bind to any lords;
to be honest i would prefer cow so far just because of economy. because in tww it's sucks. plus some stupid mchanics: for example crumbling undead.. wut? they always were weak but had an advantage of being unbreakable. and killing necromancer is a way to wipe whole army. but here is moral-like crumbling looking stupid.
The enemy AI was getting like half a full army per turn, as I keep pressing him and taking his cities. The top tier units for VC were waaaaay too expensive in comparison to the cheaper ones, and really doesn't add that much for the extra cost, forcing to make huge armies of the cheapest unit, limiting the tactical diversity.
Items and traits becomes utterly irrelevant, in one campaign with Malekith in early game, I had every stat at 10 maxed and kept getting more items that wouldn't add anything.
Generals and important characters have family tree, which is ridiculous.
Some factions doesn't have icons. Not all factions appear in the overall ranking screen, some are bugged.
Economy for some factions like DE is a joke, in no time you'll have infinite pool of money.
Balance is screwed, some units were waaay too OP. (which isn't necessarly a bad thing.)
There's no magic.
The sound VC units in the battlefield, is pretty neat though.
Crumbling undead comes right from the tabletop. So it totally makes sense tbh. There's even a lore justification to that.
Entry Cost
Call of Warhammer Beginning of the End Times is free, you only require Medieval 2 Total War and it's expansion pack Kingdoms which comes out to 25 bucks (rounding up) and both Total War Warhammers cost 60 each (once again, rounding up.)
Winner: Call of Warhammer
Campaigns
Call of Warhammer
- Grand Campaign
Total War Warhammer
- Mortal Empires
- The Vortex
- The Old World
- Beastmen DLC Mini campaign
- Wood Elves DLC Mini campaign
Winner: Total War Warhammer
Graphics
Graphically speaking, Total War Warhammer 1 & 2 both dominate CoW easiler, but this is simply because CoW is based on a very old engine, so it's not really a fair fight overall. It would be like pitting the N64 against an Xbox one. But, in the end Graphics don't really mean all that much, but they still have their place
Winner: Total War Warhammer
Playable Factions
Now, one can argue quality of the factions, the number of units they can field, and the likes. But, to keep it easy I'm just focusing on the number of actual playable Factions and because of that...
Call of Warhammer - Total: 30
-Reikland
-Middenheim & Middenland
-Hochland
-Nordland
-Stirland
-Ostland
-Ostermark
-Talabecland
-Wissenland
-Averland
-Dwarfs
-Kislev
-Chaos Dwarfs
-High Elves
-Dark Elves
-Ogre Kingdoms
-Tomb Kings
-Greenskins
-Vampire Counts
-Dogs of War
-Lizardmen
-Night Goblins
-Bretonnia
-Skaven
-Chaos Undivided
-Cult of Slaanesh
-Cult of Nurgle
-Cult of Tzeentch
-Cult of Khorne
-Rebels
TW Warhammer 1 & 2 with no DLCs - Total: 8
TW Warhammer 1, 2, & released DLCs - Total: 13
TW Warhammer 1, 2, & released DLCs (Counting Lord Factions) - Total: 25
TW Warhammer 1, 2, & released/non-released DLCs (Counting Lord Factions) - Total: 29
- The Empire
- Dwarfs x2
- Greenskins x3
- Vampire Counts x2
- Warriors of Chaos
- Bretonnia x3
- Beastmen
- Wood Elves x2
- Norsca x2
- High Elves x2
- Dark Elves x2
- Lizardmen x2
- Skaven x2
- Tomb Kings (To be released) x4
Winner: Call of Warhammer
Unit Variety
This is a easy Call of Warhammer win. I cannot give exact numbers, but CoW easily has more units/unit variety to use over Total War Warhammer. Keep in mind also that Total War Warhammer also requires you to buy DLC to even use some of the units it has.
Winner: Call of Warhammer
Spells & Magic
Easy win for Total War Warhammer since it has an actual dedicated Magic system over the outdated system that -DID NOT- have magic in mind with it's creation.
Winner: Total War Warhammer
Hero & General Progression
Total War Warhammer wins again since there is both Progression and a small degree of equipment/trait customization players can do with their generals over the older, Call of Warhammer system.
Winner: Total War Warhammer
Field Battles - Maps
Call of Warhammer feels like it has more variety in battlemaps, where Total War Warhammer seems to have a lot of copy & pasted maps.
Winner: Call of Warhammer
Bridge Battles - Maps
Total War Warhammer narrows out a win in this since there is a little bit of differences in Bridge Battles in it compared to Call of Warhammer, but even then it still isn't a lot of differences.
Winner: Total War Warhammer
Siege Battles - Maps
Call of Warhammer blows Total War Warhammer out of the water when it comes to siege Battles and this is even if CoW's siege battles tend to have an AI that derps hard once in awhile. We're talking about Siege battles that range from small camps to huge cities vs 1-2 walls and a Fragment of a settlement....
Winner: Call of Warhammer
Navy Battles
Neither Total War Warhammer or Call of Warhammer perform really strongly here. But, Call of Warhammer does have dedicated Navy units compared to Total War Warhammer
Winner: Call of Warhammer
Battle Variety - Maps
Call of Warhammer narrows out a victory since you can largely choose what time of the day your army actually attacks the enemy. If you want to go even further, the Night Goblins & Vampire counts actually gain benefits from attacking at Night instead of the Day, so there is actually more strategic value to consider in Call of Warhammer.
Winner: Call of Warhammer
Map Weather Variety
Weather variety in Call of Warhammer is simply better than Total War Warhammer. You can have everything from an early morning sun rise, to heavy fog, rain, and some more. It isn't a lot more, but if you take into consideration the effects it has on the battlefield, then the winner is clear.
Winner: Call of Warhammer
Sync Kills
While Total War Warhammer does have sync kills and slightly more flashy sync kills at that. They're far more rare than Call of Warhammer, plus you have to buy a DLC Blood Pack just to get more enjoyment out of those Sync kills.
Winner: Call of Warhammer
Not sure how much further to go with all of this. But, I can say one thing for sure. While Call of Warhammer may seem like a "fuller" experience right now, its growth is restricted to an old system that is no longer getting updates, being worked on, or anything like that. The Mod may improve, but only within the limitations of the box the Mod is bound to.
Total War Warhammer for all it's faults, has a lot more ability to not only stretch it's legs, but overcome it's flaws, and go beyond Call of Warhammer.
In the end, It's a Mod tethered to a dead game (in development terms) vs. a dedicated game that is still growing, still getting major development support, and more.
I don't agree with a lot of things here, The playable factions and the total units may be more in CoW, but they still lack depth compared to TW:W. Also with mods you can still play any faction present in Total War Warhammer with unit mods like Knights of the Empire by Willhelm that gives a lot of units, and also Total War Warhammer has dragons, beasts and monsters that are just not possible to function in CoW.
Every faction pretty much functions the same, because you are still in the Med 2 engine which was designed for a human vs human war. And from my experience the balancing in CoW was straight up awful, a lot of factions started from negative income and as consenquence I barely enjoyed it as it was just tedious to start a game.
That's why I mainly prefer Total War Warhammer. I agree on the other things though, especially sieges.
Noted, not sure what you disagree with. But, noted. :)
Good thing Faction depth wasn't in question, rather which one had more playable factions. To quote myself...
Now, one can argue quality of the factions, the number of units they can field, and the likes. But, to keep it easy I'm just focusing on the number of actual playable Factions and because of that..
Final count...
Call of Warhammer - 30 Factions
TW Warhammer 1 & 2 with no DLCs - Total: 8 Factions
TW Warhammer 1, 2, & released DLCs - Total: 13 Factions
TW Warhammer 1, 2, & released DLCs (Counting Lord Factions) - Total: 25 Factions
TW Warhammer 1, 2, & released/non-released DLCs (Counting Lord Factions) - Total: 29 Factions
When it comes to quantity, it's pretty sad so much has to be done or paid for in order to still lose out to a Mod. But, in terms of quality, the Mod simply cannot compete with the dedicated game.
When I last played Call of Warhammer BOTET (Not the CoW that takes almost 10 hours just to download) balance, while not at all perfect, wasn't so horrible that I couldn't counter units like Minotaurs, Trolls, Giants, and other such really powerful units.
Yes, with Mods...Aka you need to turn to modders to do what the Developers should have done. Call of Warhammer BOTET's developers delivered 30 Factions in the Mod's most basic form, Total War Warhammer developers delivered 4 factions in 1's most basic form, and adds another 4 in 2's most basic form for a total of 8 factions. But again, Quality vs Quantity.
Once again, with Mods...Aka you need to turn to the modders to do what the Developers should have done...
Also Dragons, Beasts, and Monsters are all in CoW: BOTET. They may not work as flawlessly as they do in the dedicated game, but they're still in, and they still serve their function regardless of the limitations of the old system.
Yup. Quality vs Quantity and a Mod's limitation restraints vs a Dedicated Game's flexibility.
Yes and no actually, but largely yes. Night Goblins and Vampire Counts actually perform better in Night Battles in CoW:BOTET, where in TWW they don't seem to perform any better or worse no matter the time of day. But, we're talking about an old system again vs a dedicated system.
Happy we agree on sieges. :)
I see the merit in both CoW:BOTET and Total War Warhammer, but in long terms, Total War Warhammer (with the right actions being taken) can easily eclipse the Mod without issue. But, that is only with the right actions being taken.
Well, if you want to remove the mods of the equation, then compare Medieval 2 to TW W, because you may not have noticed, but CoW is a MOD...
I also disagree with alot of your statements, but the one you claim there is more unit variety is ridiculous. There is a lot of skins diversity and most units are not even lore accurate and that for me break the contest right there.
As for the number of starting positions, you omited in your list to point out the 3 differents starting positions of the Beastmen, which make you count to 31 for TW W to 30 Cow, so you should change your vote there.
And for the differents starting positions, some are so heavily unbalanced, where you can't sustauin half a stack and have negative income, then a few turns after the start when you are facing bankruptcy, there is random orcs and chaos spawning right in the middle of your territory with 2+ full stack when you can barely sustain 5 basic units...
Considering the massive bugs in CoW and constant game crash, I don't even understand how it can be a serious competition anyway...
All the Best,
Gambia Dragon
The rest I would prefer total warhammer.
Then we would be having an entirely different conversation and in the end the preference would come down to opinions again. But, this conversation was based around a Warhammer Mod vs a dedicated Warhammer game. If we're going with Medieval 2 and Total War Warhammer in their basic forms, then I call them both good in their own rights, but entirely different beasts...
Thats fine, I don't mind folks disagreeing with me. Not sure what all you disagree with, but I can see the unit one for sure, so I will focus there.
CoW:BOTET as far as I can tell is largely lore accurate with their units. Now I will admit unit variety was probably the wrong word, I probably should have said unit options instead. But, what is said is said. I will have to come back to this when I have CoW:BOTET's unit rosters to compare with TWW's.
I omited them because I don't consider them different factions. If one was part of Beastmen Faction X, another Beastmen Faction Y, and the last Beastmen Faction Z, then I would have counted them as different. So, no my vote stands.
CoW:BOTET - 30 Total (current) Playable Factions (Hard Cap for the Mod)
1. Reikland
2. Middenheim & Middenland
3. Hochland
4. Nordland
5. Stirland
6. Ostland
7. Ostermark
8. Talabecland
9. Wissenland
10. Averland
11. Dwarfs
12. Kislev
13. Chaos Dwarfs
14. High Elves
15. Dark Elves
16. Ogre Kingdoms
17. Tomb Kings
18. Greenskins
19. Vampire Counts
20. Dogs of War
21. Lizardmen
22. Night Goblins
23. Bretonnia
24. Skaven
25. Chaos Undivided
26. Cult of Slaanesh
27. Cult of Nurgle
28. Cult of Tzeentch
29. Cult of Khorne
30. Rebels
TWW - 25 Total (current) Playable Factions (No idea of the Hard Cap)
1. The Empire
2. Dwarfs
3. Clan Angrund
4. Greenskins
5. The Bloody Handz
6. Crooked Moon
7. Vampire Counts
8. Von Carstein
9, Warriors of Chaos
10. Beastmen
11. Wood Elves
12. Argwylon
13. Bretonnia
14. Bordeleaux
15. Carcassonne
16. Norsca
17. Wintertooth
18. Lothern
19. Order of Loremasters
20. Cult of Pleasure
21. Naggarond
22. Hexoatl
23. Last Defenders
24. Clan Mors
25. Clan Pestilens
If I understand correctly, the addition of the Tomb Kings will be another four factions. If so, then that jumps this list up to 29 for TWW upon TK's release. Still 1 short of CoW:BOTET's 30.
Now the gap will narrow a lot more if we take out factions and just go by race or kingdoms or whatever. IE: Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs, Greenskins, Vampire Counts, Kislev, and etc...
I call that a challenge to overcome. Even factions in TWW have scales of challenges to their starting positions. So, if you want to say who has a variety of Initial challenge, then they both win in that regard. If you want who has harder initial challenges over the other, then that comes down to opinion, and my opinion is still equal grounds of both winning the vote.
Last update to CoW:BOTET actually fixed a lot of the crashing problems (I'm going to guess you stopped playing CoW after enough crashes and or because TWW had came out. Either way is perfectly understandable.) But, it still has issues from time to time, but it is a Mod after all, and Mods do tend to be crash prone. Anyone who Mods their games knows that the risk of a Mod crashing a game is always a possibility.
To me this isn't about competition. Hell, if this was a competition in the more traditional sense, then I'd ask who made more money, the Free Mod, or the two 60 dollar games? Which you don't have to be a scientist to see who wins that one easily. Both CoW:BOTET and TWW have their positives, their negatives, and places they tie. In the end though, it's all opinion and we all know what they say about opinions.
With the limitations the Mod Developers faced, I agree whole heartedly. But, if CA was to make a Dogs of War Faction, or say...the ability to play as one of the Border Prince Kingdoms that require the usage of Dogs of War because their State Troops suck all sorts of assm or whatever. I'd have far higher expectations of CA.