ITT: Steel Judoka worst squad and why

[MemesRDreams]

Steel Judoka is just trash. I could say this about squads with high skillcaps like Frozen Titans or Flame Behemoths, but they just don't work all that well. Here's why. (Apparently, this is my opinion, no need to get your grav well into a twist.)

Judo Mech: The vice fist has low damage output and is extremely finicky. Nine times out of ten using it does nothing to improve your situation.

Grav Mech: This is the shining point of the squad. The gravity well is like the Defense mech's weapon but with better reach. I find it easiest to use this mech to pull of the squad's main gimmick, kills via collateral damage.

Shrapnel Mech AKA Trash on legs

Simply the worst mech in the entire game. (You could say that about the freeze mech, but at least you can make jokes about winning with three of them.)

The Cluster bomb pushes and damages in all squares adjacent to the impact point. In theory this would be used to push away vek attacking buildings, but there's ALWAYS at least one building right next to it. This makes it so pretty much every other situation has it so you'd make things worse than if you were to let the thing be. And I don't care if there's a "Building Immune" option, even if there is or isn't, good luck getting a reactor core for it.)

[Thug Goofy]

Originally posted by Hellpest:

Originally posted by SquashBacher:

No, not at all; the squads (and pilots you can pair them with) are diverse enough so that your mileage from a given squad may vary, based on your perferred playstyles. I've seen a tier list for hard mode on Reddit where Zenith Guard came dead last. Zenith happens to be one of my favorite squads, and they gave me a couple of my earliest victories on hard.

Same. Zenith Guard gave me the no weapons/pilots, no weapon modifications, and 3 perfect islands achievements, all on a single normal run.

It's one of the most powerful squads early game, and the most versatile of those that would otherwise compete (looking at you, leap mech). A 3 damage weapon from the start lets you tear through most of the game. Shove a :ftlzoltan: in the charge mech and you've got one of the best ranged squads in the game.

IMO, Zenith Guard is more of a better "second" squad, rather than Rusting Hulks.

Yes mate; Mafan + Charge Mech = So f--king good

[Tactoe]

I wholeheartedly agree. The worst thing about the Steel judoka is that only the siege mech is able to deal with burrowers, since they cannot be moved around (and it usually implies hurting one of your buildings in the process). Best turnaround I could find is having the Mantis as a pilot on the judo mech. Also, I think it would've made more sense to swap the grav mech with the teleporter mech from the Flame behemoths, this gives you so much more possibility in your repositionning, and having to choose between boosting the teleporter range VS boosting the vek pheromones makes it even more interesting, imo.

[DHBTVS]

Originally posted by Drain:

. That mod should be, "aliens deal more damage when hitting or knocked into each other, and from holes", all of these in 1 mod.
.

You have got to be joking.

The mod that does 1 extra bump damage is already the absolutely best mod...and up there with best weapons, in the game. It doesn't need combined with anything.. its already god tier level good. Hell, finding that mod early is like... guarenteed I'm gonna win the run.

While I agree the extra damage mod is terrible, I think the other terrible mod is the one that shares psion's powers... so if you are going to combine two, that's the two to combine. It's also got a thematic link, using the bugs' power against themselves.

[Thug Goofy]

Originally posted by Tactoe:

I wholeheartedly agree. The worst thing about the Steel judoka is that only the siege mech is able to deal with burrowers, since they cannot be moved around (and it usually implies hurting one of your buildings in the process). Best turnaround I could find is having the Mantis as a pilot on the judo mech. Also, I think it would've made more sense to swap the grav mech with the teleporter mech from the Flame behemoths, this gives you so much more possibility in your repositionning, and having to choose between boosting the teleporter range VS boosting the vek pheromones makes it even more interesting, imo.

Coincidentally, I recently pulled off my best-scoring run (hard mode) with Judoka. But it was only because I used the Mantis pilot AND got an early teleporter from a time pod.

Also, I'm starting to wonder if the hazard squad is even worse than Judoka. They've got a nice damage output (and using a zoltan pilot for the unstable mech is fantastic), but managing friendly fire on buildings / objectives becomes a ridiculous nightmare.

[Epleskront]

I've only played for about 15 hours so far, and I completed a two-island victory on my first try with these guys. I had to get 2 reactors to buy the building immune for the artillery, and after that it was not so hard. The scatter artillery is troublesome before you get this upgrade. Also, jump jets on the judo mech really helps.

The easiest squads for to use so far from me are the Flame Behemots and the Rusting Hulks, which with both I completed a 4 island victory on my first attempt. The swap mech is SOOOO GOOD! Haven't tried to play on hard yet though.

[Helly]

Originally posted by SquashBacher:

Also, I'm starting to wonder if the hazard squad is even worse than Judoka. They've got a nice damage output (and using a zoltan pilot for the unstable mech is fantastic), but managing friendly fire on buildings / objectives becomes a ridiculous nightmare.

Hazard is more so infuriating than anything else. While it's not bad, it is very rng-dependent. It can be decent, being able to come back from death is great, and having a Rock pilot the leap mech gives it desperately needed health for early game, as well as letting it actually attack on forests without burning to death on the next turn.

The issue with the unstable mechs is that there's too much that can go wrong - fire, buildings, etc - that you can't cover with just one pilot/strategy.

[Helly]

Originally posted by GGBergen.God2:

I've only played for about 15 hours so far, and I completed a two-island victory on my first try with these guys. I had to get 2 reactors to buy the building immune for the artillery, and after that it was not so hard. The scatter artillery is troublesome before you get this upgrade. Also, jump jets on the judo mech really helps.

The easiest squads for to use so far from me are the Flame Behemots and the Rusting Hulks, which with both I completed a 4 island victory on my first attempt. The swap mech is SOOOO GOOD! Haven't tried to play on hard yet though.

IMO the prime from the FB is even more powerful than the swap mech. With burning enemies on 1 health that will just get in other enemies' way before dying, plus the 3-long flame attack that pushes and ignores buildings, plus the fact you can burn Vek tunnels to set emerging Vek aflame, as well as most of the battlefield.

Swap can kill 1 Vek or block 1 attack. The prime can (and has on one of my runs) kill 5+ enemies at the same time and effectively attack everything that's touched a 3-tile line, every turn, for the rest of the mission.

[Voroff]

Yop.

You know, the worst themed squad is the Flames Behemoths. They kill bugsies kinda slow usually, and when you find a "good" weapon, you kinda ... dont use it with them, cause it will not be fire based.

On the opposite hand, the steel judokas are juste the PERFECT avatar of the game. This game itself is the bastard child of a judoka and a chess board, yes ? The range thingy deals lots of dmgs on a lot of tiles, you "just" have to arrange your ennemies before firing, for them to bump into each others.
Are you just aware that you can use the second or third mech before the first, in a turn ? :) It opens so much possibilities ! Its not the raw dmgs that counts with that squad, its parrying and countering the most efficiently. You dont "have" to kill everything in one round, like the zeniths :p

Talking about countering = The prime should toss an ennemy into the firing range of another each turn, but need a second weapon asap - just as the ThunderMech that harms yours friends and objectives. Thats because you can't always toss ennemies 'cause positions - and yeah, its just a ease for life to got a direct dmgs that hurts the burrowers.

The science vessel is the weak link in the group, cause he needs a lot of movements and flying ... he cant kill things by himself and just helps to position a bug ... only one bug. Strange and good thing its artillery based/themed cause if he got the gun-thing from the defense mech from zenith squad he would just be unplayable in this squad. The theme of the judokas is "neutralise two bugs with one mech", he could diplace one ... eventually. Thats my opinion on him after playing, at any rate.



Just a side note : the burrowers are SUCH a pain for this squad for ONE simple little thing : the attack order is based on the on-map-apparition order, and those burrowers stay a while on the map while others die fast. So the act first quite a lot in the later turns ... would be a lot easier for them to get hit by other bugs if they act last; like explosives blobs and spiders eggies.

[FilipinoMilitiaMan]

Originally posted by Hellpest:

Originally posted by SquashBacher:

Also, I'm starting to wonder if the hazard squad is even worse than Judoka. They've got a nice damage output (and using a zoltan pilot for the unstable mech is fantastic), but managing friendly fire on buildings / objectives becomes a ridiculous nightmare.

Hazard is more so infuriating than anything else. While it's not bad, it is very rng-dependent. It can be decent, being able to come back from death is great, and having a Rock pilot the leap mech gives it desperately needed health for early game, as well as letting it actually attack on forests without burning to death on the next turn.

The issue with the unstable mechs is that there's too much that can go wrong - fire, buildings, etc - that you can't cover with just one pilot/strategy.

Yeah I'd have to second this that Hazard Squad is probably the worst in the game. If you don't get decent reactor cores to upgrade your weapons and 1-shot Vek, especially in the first 2 islands, you'll have to restart the run because you won't survive islands 4 and 5.

I also have some of the worst win percentages with Zenith. The laser is neat, but it doesn't displace or block Vek, meaning you're stuck early on with only 2 mechs that can protect buildings from 4 HP vek. Until you get a second weapon to go with the laser that offers crowd control, Zenith quickly gets overwhelmed.

I don't know what OP is talking about. Judoka isn't god-tier like Rusting Hulks, but it's far from being the worst.

I can't really take anyone who says the Ice mech is useless seriously. It means they haven't unlocked Beth or Mafan.

[Helly]

Originally posted by FilipinoMilitiaMan:

I can't really take anyone who says the Ice mech is useless seriously. It means they haven't unlocked Beth or Mafan.

I second this, having beaten the game with only 3 ice mechs xD

One with and a fully upgraded freezing AoE (can't remember name, but it's OP), one with smoke drop, and one with a heat exchanger. Got through the first two islands with no net gain/loss of grid power, then flawlessed the final fight (although losing 2 pilots on the last turn).

[Farf]

Steel judokas are a bit below the other squads, but not to a point where they are unplayable. I finished the game with them on hard and with all three island counts.
If I had to tweak them, there are two things I would do

A) Have the Siege Mech's building immune upgrade cost only one reactor. This upgrade is mandatory, and it just negates a drawback, it doesn't make you that much stronger at dealing with Veks. 2 reactors is really steep, especially since it blocks other mechs' upgrades at least for an entire island.

B) change the upgrades for the vice fist with one of the two following options :
- Remove the ally immune upgrade (I almost never use that weapon on allies anyway, and on rare occasions I do, I can afford one damage), then split the damage boost upgrade into +1 dmg for 1 reactor and another +1 damage for 2 reactors. Beating the enemy with its own strength is a neat concept, but on a full run of the game, sometimes you just need the raw damage, especially early on.
- Change the ally immune upgrade for more flexibility in positioning the target (examples : grab enemies at 2 range, or place them on any adjacent tile, not just the opposite one).
The latter option would fit the theme of the judokas better than the former, but i'd be happy with either one.

[Giraffasaur]

Hey guys, I'm a huge fan of Into the Breach, and I'm hoping to help out those who struggle with some of the squads.

Steel Judoka is tough, but it is quite the beast when using its synergies effectively (and remarkably satisfying). If anyone is interested, I have some videos of the squad tackling a 4-Island Hard Mode run. The intent here is to show how I go about utilizing the squad's strengths/weaknesses.

Here are each island broken apart into separate videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzlLVQPdx0c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKuzsHG-YbI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHptnSU44LE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8skT_5-2Lk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Jr-dcF7_o

If that doesn't strike your fancy, I also live streamed the game earlier today. Here's the full run, which played a bit differently than the YouTube series. Heck, I even made a critical error one point in the run, and we still bounced back from it due to the squad's functionality.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/312508465

I'm going through all the squads again because I love this game so much. I'm happy to have a further discussion about Steel Judoka, how you're playing the squad, and discuss positioning and strategies!

[Thug Goofy]

Originally posted by Giraffasaur:

Hey guys, I'm a huge fan of Into the Breach, and I'm hoping to help out those who struggle with some of the squads.

Steel Judoka is tough, but it is quite the beast when using its synergies effectively (and remarkably satisfying). If anyone is interested, I have some videos of the squad tackling a 4-Island Hard Mode run. The intent here is to show how I go about utilizing the squad's strengths/weaknesses.

Here are each island broken apart into separate videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzlLVQPdx0c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKuzsHG-YbI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHptnSU44LE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8skT_5-2Lk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Jr-dcF7_o

If that doesn't strike your fancy, I also live streamed the game earlier today. Here's the full run, which played a bit differently than the YouTube series. Heck, I even made a critical error one point in the run, and we still bounced back from it due to the squad's functionality.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/312508465

I'm going through all the squads again because I love this game so much. I'm happy to have a further discussion about Steel Judoka, how you're playing the squad, and discuss positioning and strategies!

Choice, man. I think this game deserves a lot more attention, especially when compared to FTL; both are about equally good, give or take. Nice to see someone trying to make a bit of buzz

[Pumpkinreaper]

Steel judoka are pretty decent but have two serious flaws, which are absolutely needing the no building damage upgrade and being dead in the water when they aren't able to move enemies around. Like worm enemies which can't be shifted, or when spiderling spawners web up your judo mech. Those situations cause the squad to fall apart incredibly fast since their main strengths are negated for the most part.

[Giraffasaur]

Originally posted by IAMCRAIG:

Steel judoka are pretty decent but have two serious flaws, which are absolutely needing the no building damage upgrade and being dead in the water when they aren't able to move enemies around. Like worm enemies which can't be shifted, or when spiderling spawners web up your judo mech. Those situations cause the squad to fall apart incredibly fast since their main strengths are negated for the most part.

You're right. Though I think that's also the point. Let me clarify.

There are plenty of situations where certain mechs struggle with certain obstacles because of how the Vek position themselves, how the player has allocated their pilots/power, and what decisions the player has made to compensate for their specific mech's weaknesses.

The challenge of Vek Burrowers is that they are immovable. So, yes, Steel Judoka needs to find unique opportunities to work around this enemy, much like any squadron (or more specifically, any mech) that utilizes repositioning Vek. And aside from using Camila Vera, webbing almost always complicates the player's turn by hindering mobility.

Steel Judoka certainly has its flaws and struggles, absolutely. But it comes down on us, the player, to respond to our situation with correct positioning and risk management. Or as SquashBacher so elegantly puts it, choice.

The videos I posted above show two very different ways of diving into Steel Judoka. The YouTube video series skims around the weaknesses of the squadron and opts for something else entirely, whereas the Twitch run plays more true to their strengths. I think this can be accomplished with any chosen squadron, but it comes down to how the player reacts and adjusts.