Into the Breach

Into the Breach

View Stats:
DodgeyHoodoo Mar 5, 2018 @ 12:55am
Design or Flawed RNG?
Is it design intention that the game sometimes deliberately fails you by forcing unwinnable situations on the first turn? For instance, by spawning a blast psion in the far corner out of reach of any of your weapons, and a melee unit next to the train that you can't kill because it'll kill the train when it dies, and you can't leave alone because it'll kill the train when it dies?

What I'm saying is, is it design philosophy that each turn is supposed to have a solvable puzzle, or is it design philosophy that sometimes the game just takes a greasy dump on your face and there's nothing you can do about it? Because, if it's the former, the RNG needs work. If it's the latter, I am severely disappointed.
< >
Showing 31-45 of 67 comments
obliviondoll Mar 12, 2018 @ 5:23pm 
Originally posted by DodgeyHoodoo:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/915792898572288873/2661E7B5F3306BDF606A5FC41008FDE0877E211A/

This looks reasonable and fair and not like borked map generation like the pic that was posted before. The enemy near the bottom of the pic produces rocks as part of his attack and they can be destroyed with only 1 damage. A 1 damage push against the flying target would push it into the rock and clear it, giving you space to reach the enemy who spawned the rocks, or your artillery could attack it.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/915792898569982611/D84A8AFB5A18A292A71E18251E914251891D52D4/

This isn't a turn-one scenario. It's hard to judge how fair this is because if you screw up mid-mission you can set up problems like this which you don't have a total solution for. That's not the RNG's fault - although sometimes without priot knowledge it isn't necessarily your fault either.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/915792898569889730/571B94BC431E74685A6F055D760B2FB685F7D3E2/

Also not an opening move, AND doesn't look unstoppable anyway. Not clear on what you're trying to show with this one.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/915792633199540152/FC856DC557100DEDA485346CA894BDE823A89160/

This is a scenario where you literally only have 2 enemies attacking with 4 enemies on the board. How is this meant to be an unwinnable scenario?

Just some more BS. I swear this happens more and more often now that I'm aware of it.

I think what you're seeing here is confirmation bias. Although you are using a squad I haven't tried yet, so it's possible that you're simply being limited by a high-difficulty loadout. Which, once again, isn't a problem with RNG. The game is balanced around more typical builds and you don't have one of those.

Also it's probably worth learning how to embed Steam images if you're going to keep using them.

Highlight your name at the top of the Steam page, and select "content". On that page, you can click on recently-uploaded screenshots and view them (or select "screenshots" on any recently-played game to only view pics you took in that game). The URL at the top of the pop-up is the link you should post in the forums:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1329470950

(that's your most recently-uploaded ITB screenshot)
Silence Mar 12, 2018 @ 6:14pm 
During my first run with the secret squad, normal difficulty, last island was a nightmare. About 2 out of 3 enemies were Alphas with 5 HP ... i lost at least 2 grid damage per area and lost the last one when I was about to finish the island. And my team was really strong at the time, but it just couldn't cope with that many alphas ...

So to win with them I made a 2 islands run, and it went much better !
Last edited by Silence; Mar 12, 2018 @ 6:15pm
x_equals_speed Mar 12, 2018 @ 6:35pm 
The RNG should almost never get you on turn 1, you see the enemies specific deployment and their move distances before choosing your positions. Sometimes you get unlucky with what comes out of spawning holes and have to lose something though.
Vibby Mar 12, 2018 @ 6:43pm 
I have yet to encounter an unwinnable starting situation. 35 hours in, and there is ALWAYS a way. Even when I do encounter a situation I cannot win, it's almost always my fault.

Heck, even this nightmare-ish situation has a solution:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1325842201
x_equals_speed Mar 12, 2018 @ 7:07pm 
Originally posted by Vibraxis:
Heck, even this nightmare-ish situation has a solution:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1325842201

I don't see the solution. I think it's as the OP said and you have to take one damage on the train.

If the one near the back of the train goes first it cannot affect the situation at the front of the train because it can't move or teleport a vek to attack anything up there.

If the one in the fog goes first it cannot do anything because it can't move (web) and can't teleport (fog)

If the one outside the fog goes first it can switch with 2 targets, but whichever one it switches with it'll place them in front of the train, so the train will crash into them. Switching with the web and freeing its partner doesn't seem to lead to a situation where the partner could arrange for something to attack the thing blocking the train.

The pilot that allows a mech to push everything adjacent back by one space my provide additional options, but I can't tell which one he's in. In the fog it changes nothing because you can't repair in fog, in front of the train it changes nothing because you would end your move in front of the train, at the back it changes nothing because it still doesn't affect the situation up front.

Am I missing something?
obliviondoll Mar 12, 2018 @ 7:48pm 
That picture doesn't show:
-what upgrades/weapons are equipped on each mech (may not be default starting loadouts)
-Vek attack order
-current Vek HP values
-which machine(s) have which HP value.

If the machine in F5 has a way to push the Vek in G5, that frees the webbed mech in G4. If that can go through the train, it might be able to eliminate the Vek in G3 or move it to H3. This leaves the mech in F3 blocking the shot from F2. If instead the Vek from G3 can be pushed to F3 it can block that shot instead. This leaves the mech in D3 to deal with the spider in D4 at the back of the train, possibly by swapping places with it or some other method. If the mech remains where it is due to a lack of alternatives, this might end with it taking 2 hits and being guaranteed dead.

Also if that mech in D3 has the pushback ability, it would be able to push the Vek in E3 to block the shot from F2, which frees the mechs up front up to have less to worry about.
obliviondoll Mar 12, 2018 @ 9:00pm 
Originally posted by DodgeyHoodoo:
Yes, I realize it's small potatoes next to the crap that FTL used to do

Considering that FTL has been objectively and repeatedly proven to be more than 90% winnable on hard on multiple occasions, I'd say "not as RNG-screwed as FTL" is quite the massive compliment about the game.

EDIT: ...or you could delete the message, I guess?
Last edited by obliviondoll; Mar 12, 2018 @ 9:01pm
Elldrytch Mar 12, 2018 @ 9:29pm 
I think it depends on what you mean by unwinnable. There are a ton of situations where you're going to lose grid. Not because you did anything wrong, but because RNG dictated that you're going to. Usually when I run into these situations its a result of duplicate spawns. So 2-3x of the same unit. Duplicate units should not be allowed, or at least not nearly as common as they really are. It's doublly problematic when they're scorpions becuase the ability to both CC and damage simultaniously (which is IMO a poor design) or wasps because they're both flying and overly fast . I feel the wasps either need a movement limitation on their spawn turn, or just a global reduction in speed to 4. A Vek Pillon with a speed boost would let them get back to 5 and provide more variety.

I think the game would be a lot more interesting if the units and types were already pre determined before combat, and the spawn just effected what order they came in. Chess is interesting becuase it's about making use of known pieces. It's less so when your little brother puts all queens on his side of the board. Then it's just dumb.

As for completely unwinnable scenarios? I think that's rare. I would say maybe 1 in 100 results in something where you can't do anything about it, irrespective of what upgrade path you chose. Usually that's a result of the game putting the thing you have to defend in the enemy side of the map, and then blocking you via webs or terrain such that you can't possibly get over it. The maps with a big wall in the middle, or mostly a wall (of grid buildings) which the AI will block the few remaining spots, are the worst transgressors and really need to be addressed. Again, duplicate units also excaerbate this issue.

The RNGness of ITB vs FTL are very similar. The game is primarily winnable every time you play, and the first 90% of it is just gathering things to perform the final fight, which is the only really difficult part. The only part about ITB that I'm less keen on is the fact that in FTL, when you don't do well in a system, you just end up with less resources to spend on things. In ITB it's represented as "PEOPLE HAVE DIED". While from a game perspective it's immaterial, from a personal enjoyment perspective, I find it frustrating and tedious. I don't like the 'constant death' that ITB seems to want to use to provide gravitas. I would rather the buildings be full of loot you need to save. It's immaterial to actual gameplay, but it reduces my enjoyment of the game a surprising amount.
Last edited by Elldrytch; Mar 12, 2018 @ 9:31pm
Fr0zZy Mar 13, 2018 @ 12:21am 
55/55, and i haven't faced unwinable situations on FIRST turn. It's only you, who screw things up for yourself, doing bad turns. I have lost hard game on last turn, becaus one of my mechs was in the corner of map. Lesson learned, always keep mechs near center of map.
Fr0zZy Mar 13, 2018 @ 12:25am 
Originally posted by project_mercy:
I think the game would be a lot more interesting if the units and types were already pre determined before combat, and the spawn just effected what order they came in. Chess is interesting becuase it's about making use of known pieces. It's less so when your little brother puts all queens on his side of the board. Then it's just dumb.

Dont we have island info, which says about enemies you are going to encounter on island, as well as boss of island?
BATTLEMODE Mar 13, 2018 @ 1:14am 
I rue the day that gamers started using the acronym "RNG". I can count the times I've seen it used in a correct context on one hand...
Peachtree Games Mar 13, 2018 @ 1:40am 
The maps and enemy spawns are procedurally generated. It's design that sometimes you get dealt bad hands, and have "unwinnable" turns.

That said, there's plenty of room for strategy in the larger game to make up for those lousy turns. If you lose too much power, you can choose to do power restore levels instead of reputation levels. When you buy at the store, you can also choose to buy more power instead of weapons or core upgrades.

It's what makes a procedurally generated game fun: every playthrough is completely different, and there are times when you get beat down hard in the beginning, only to make a comeback by good strategy, better tactics, and perhaps a touch of luck.
Pastapockets Mar 13, 2018 @ 2:10am 
You are at all times one turn away from losing it. Mostly due to enemy spawns. If enemies spawn and swarm to attack different corners of the map miles away from you: you lose.

If a bunch of web slinging enemies spawn and crowd around you, you lose.

Every single time an enemy spawns hold your breath and hope they move in the correct fashion. If they don't you reset. Losses and stray hits hit far far harder in this game than FTL.
dn Mar 13, 2018 @ 2:34am 
Originally posted by Ham Man:
If it's grid damage, you can deal with losing one point. Losing a objective sucks, but even if the train gets damaged once, you still get one star if you protect what's left of it.

In the hundreds of battles I've come to play there were very few times I felt totally helpless, and I still feel like I could have maybe prevented them if I hadn't been super-greedy before. On hard mode there were 2-3 instances (usually start of the 2nd island) where it seems there can be no good outcome, let alone perfect: But then there's simply squads that aren't that well suited/that versatile. But while high damage squads early make your life easy, but aren't agile enough for later... others (with rough patches at the start) can become very good in almost any situation later on, especially with good secondary weapons.

But it's a game of choices after all. Luck on what pilots you get, what weapons are on sale, which map you can choose from that fits your loadout's playstyle. Luck on which unit gets webbed if there are 2 choices in ranges. All in all it's as enjoyable as such an RNG-y game gets I feel, even on hard mode.

Originally posted by project_mercy:
As for completely unwinnable scenarios? I think that's rare. I would say maybe 1 in 100 results in something where you can't do anything about it, irrespective of what upgrade path you chose. Usually that's a result of the game putting the thing you have to defend in the enemy side of the map

I agree, they're very unlikely. And if so, it does also feel like I chose a map that clearly said high-threat and wasn't good for my squads projectile shots but I went in there greedily and with high hopes. Have to fall on your face to realise how nice it is not to have a broken nose.
Last edited by dn; Mar 13, 2018 @ 2:39am
x_equals_speed Mar 13, 2018 @ 2:38am 
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
If the machine in F5 has a way to push the Vek in G5, that frees the webbed mech in G4....

The machine in F5 is in web and smoke, you can give it whatever equipment and upgrades you like but without a pilot who's not in the scenario it can't do anything.

If that wasn't the case the scenario is easily winnable with no upgrades. F5 switches with the spider egg. G4 moves to F3 and switches with G3 which negates the shot from G3 (now off target) and F2 (now hitting another vek) which just leaves D3 to switch with D4 negating that final spider hit and putting it in a safe place.

But the smoke in F5 seems to make avoiding all damage unwinnable unless you introduce exotic equipment to the scenario, like one of the mechs has a wind turbine up its sleeve or something.
< >
Showing 31-45 of 67 comments
Per page: 1530 50

Date Posted: Mar 5, 2018 @ 12:55am
Posts: 67