Aspects ruined this already broken game for good

[nightshift]

When you turn on Hell Mode and 32 heat in Hades, you should get a challenging run. You cannot simultaneously enable to have all your Death Defiance restored after each level. That would be dumb. Here you can do that. 5 cell, but with a full potion restoration after every biome due to Baby mode Custom mode. Ridiculous. We already have a difficulty slider and it is wider than ever. 6 stages, you can go from zero cell up to 5 cell. There you go, was that not enough?
Now we sank even lower. Aspects have no negative impact after 5 cell mode. None. You want to appeal to new players? Then don't deprive them of the joy of progression and variety. Those are the biggest selling points of roguelites in my opinion. With Aspects introduced, new players will be bored out of their minds and loose their ambition faster than ever due to how repetitive it makes the game. Because with Aspects, nothing matters anymore. Doesn't matter what melee weapons you have, what affixes it has, the condition of crits. Your mutations also lost their meaning. Some concerning reload time, some about damage with a certain conditions - none matter anymore when you can start each fight with a smoke bomb and one shot every enemy, while they cannot even attack you while being constantly invisible due to Predator. Completely broken.
Devs, is this really your vision of 5 cell mode? Because now that's how your game turned out. New players will feel each run to be the same as every affix and weapon type lost it's meaning when you one-shot enemies anyway. All encounters are the same, all enemies are just dummies to be cut down despite them having different attack patters and moves. Now they are the same. Just standing still, not attacking, ready to explode on touch. And when they turn this off, the actual intended difficulty will feel even more hard on them due to being accustomed to having it easy with Aspects - effectively resulting in the exact opposite of what you intended to accomplish. I don't know if there's a way to check this, but one should compare each customer's playtime. New players will abandon this game faster despite it having more content than ever exactly due to features like this. You catered the baby-crowd long enough and it ruined the game already while nothing changed, they still; and will continue to complain. I would not be surprised if the next update will include checkpoints after every portal reached and quicksave/load option.

[travistotle]

This is the most pointless thing I've ever read. Are you under the impression that somebody is making you take an Aspect? They are completely and totally OPTIONAL. I messed around with them, had some fun, and am now back to playing the game legit because they feel like playing with cheat codes.

They are literally just harmless fun that some people can choose to have with the game whenever they feel like, who peed in your breakfast today?

[nightshift]

You phrased it right, they exactly feel like cheat codes.
They are optional... but new players (the ones the devs aimed these Aspects for) will turn these on the first available opportunity right after they die in a sudden fashion. But in a roguelite, that is acording to plan. You meant to die a lot at the beginning, since you still have limited equipment smaller flask.. etc. You are supposed to play and get better while your character to be stronger with access to more means of pwnage. And then you can actually feel powerful, have diverse runs and feel the joy of variety. And you also have enough experience to play A LOT better.
I know it is a choice, but it is one that most players will take - especially new ones. There should be a poll about which mode you play, normal or custom? Do you use those particular game breaking settings, or just maybe limiting the Spartan Sandal out of your game? Based on that poll, we could get a reliable info on just how much will take advantage of these Aspects you refer as cheat codes.

[Phirestar]

The aspects were designed with the intention of being a helping hand for struggling new players, not as a means of being a crutch to lean on in place of improving at the game. If someone chooses to rely on aspects to be able to win, that's their own problem, because Motion Twin has balanced it out by preventing you from reaching higher boss cells while using them. They wouldn't be deprived of the enjoyment of progression, as you've said, because they're locked out of it until they turn the aspects off.

And sure, that characteristic has no relevance in 5BC. But by the time someone has reached that mode they'll have long outgrown the need for aspects, too. They would've beaten the first five difficulties without them - they're far from a new player, by that point, and would be able to beat Hell difficulty without them.

[The Old Song]

If anything this is going to make more new players stay longer. I mean, *that's the point*.
Before new, not-so-skilled players would get the game, and do too poorly to have any fun, causing them to abandon the game. Now they can use the aspects, do better, make some initial progress with collector/forge, actually have fun, and eventually turn aspects off to progress Boss Cells. This will cause players to stay with the game who wouldn't have without the feature.

Plus they offer a nice excuse to actually use certain builds. There's some good fire gear in the game and the oil interaction is nice, but without a fire mutation a fire build feels incomplete and therefor bad. The aspect can be used to make up for the missing mutation and let it feel like a real build.
......I still want them to add actual fire and poison mutations though

[Gatebase]

Heavens forbid someone might actually be having fun with this game! Dead Cells has left Early Access three years ago, yet the developers kept changing core mechanics, ramping up the difficulty and nerfing cool builds or powerful weapons like this goofy singleplayer game was some sort of competitive online game. Just look at what they did to my boy Quick Bow - nerfed to hell across several patches. Who benefits from them taking out fun? Nobody, that's why I'm glad that they've come around and started adding fun again. Finally we get a step in the right direction, putting fun ahead of everything else like it should be for a game. As someone who has 100%ed the game around 1.8 I very much welcome this course correction.

Originally posted by nightshift:

That would be dumb. Here you can do that. 5 cell, but with a full potion restoration after every biome due to Baby mode Custom mode. Ridiculous.

Don't use it. Problem solved. If you can't stand having the option, roll back to 2.4 via Steam betas. You can literally keep playing whatever past version was your favorite forever. I haven't played the current version in over a year but this update brought me back and I'm enjoying it.

Originally posted by nightshift:

You want to appeal to new players? Then don't deprive them of the joy of progression and variety.

How do aspects hinder that? If anything they add a lot of variety (I never gave fire much of a chance, but now I'm probably going to goof around with it once I'm bored of playing without aspects) and allow more players to enjoy more content. If you feel more powerful you might check out biomes you're not that familiar with or which you consider harder (same idea as the rewards for going to least used biomes). Btw, did you miss that Aspects don't let you unlock new BSCs? The progression has the exact same skill barrier as if Aspects didn't exist.

Originally posted by nightshift:

With Aspects introduced, new players will be bored out of their minds and loose their ambition faster than ever due to how repetitive it makes the game.

Originally posted by nightshift:

I don't know if there's a way to check this, but one should compare each customer's playtime. New players will abandon this game faster despite it having more content than ever exactly due to features like this.

So you're not even complaining about a problem *you* have, but a problem someone else who you've made up in your head *might* have? What's the point? Also, if everything you imagine comes true - what's the harm? This is a singleplayer game, you don't need a large playerbase to enjoy it. If every new player would quit tomorrow you'd still have the same experience. Why would this "problem" even need fixing from your point of view? If new players hate the experience, let *them* complain.

[nightshift]

Did you use a sword with that will make you vulnerable, but gives you 1% HP leech? Worthless when there's an Aspect granting you can get 3% without any drawbacks (especially if you have the Blood Sword or Open Wounds. This is literal invulnerability. You can simply tank any damage. Within a simple 3 hit combo, you'll already get back 9%. In a second. Then there's the speed buff Aspect that gives totally bonkers bonuses... for free, without compromise of any kind. Speed mutation is worthless now, speed affixes too.
The bonuses are waaaaay too game breaking. They went way overboard. There are Aspects that render the majority of equipment and mutations utterly meaningless, while those are supposed to be ABOVE these, those are supposed to shape your run. Aspects are not just superior, but they completely CANCEL a lot of these out, making the game LESS. If I would be another dev responsible for inventing clever affixes and mutations working well within the game, usable in a lot of different ways and combinations now rendered obsolete by a single new power that the player now gets FROM THE START, I would be furious. And seriously, these mutations sounds like they were invented by some 9 year old COD players with 3 hrs of playtime. Lack creativity, just a blatant bonus without any context or consideration to the rest of the game. Some giving so immensely huge advantage, it's like they did not even know the proportions. It's like increasing HP with 800%, grenade with full screen size explosions or dagger which also parries with hits. Dual wielding Broadswords with 5x speed that bleeds, burns, poisons and stuns the enemy all at once while shooting an explosive bolt. Like if the inventors of these Aspects did not even knew the impact of their doing and how they now turn 5 cell mode easier than 1 cell mode.
I'm honestly surprised to see that neither of you find my reasons valid and relatable - especially seasoned players who should know the game better and the losses this involves.

[Gatebase]

I won't pretend they are remotely balanced, but that's the fun of it. Speaking as someone who likes to play glass cannons and only really dies to curses anymore, the curse Aspect seems just hilariously overpowered and blows the others out of the water for me. I love it! Finally Cursed Sword has a use, it's like putting Tactics builds on steroids while adding a bunch of free stats. Some day I really have to die a bunch to unlock all these cool Aspects. I basically never play Brutality, it just doesn't appeal to me. So I wasn't even aware of the invisibility synergy. But it sounds rad as hell! The curse thing, fire, now invisibility - that's just a bunch of quirky Brutality stuff I've never even considered opening up for me. Fun! Great ideas to bring someone back who has done everything else there is to do.

I still don't really get what your harm in all of this is, what exactly makes you so upset since the whole thing is entirely optional (and essentially gated for "seasoned players" like us since we barely die anymore). It's probably not the most elegantly designed solution for the problem at hand (I'll give you that - these would have fit better as Custom Mode options rather than introducing yet another pointless NPC), but life is way too short to be annoyed by optional content that isn't even aimed at you. Now you're mad on behalf of a developer you've never met and whose stance on this change you don't even know? Seriously? This whole thing seems like you're actively looking for reasons to be upset when nothing about this has an actual negative impact on you. Especially since you can roll back and forget this update ever happened.

[Leviathan]

Originally posted by nightshift:

Here you can do that. 5 cell, but with a full potion restoration after every biome due to Baby mode Custom mode. Ridiculous.

You don't need potion restoration in custom mode. You can...
- Increase mutation limit and carry a ton of them.
- Play custom seed.
- Remove Curse from cursed chests.
- Start with tons of gold
- All items are colorless
And you're complaining about aspects?

Wanna be challenged? Play custom mode in 5BC! With every fun modifier on and at max! And use aspects and as many mutations as you want.
Because you get (some of these are good):
- 99 enemy curse per chest :( (too hard to not take damage so you can also turn the modifier that makes curses put you at 1 hp instead of killing you).
- 50k starting gold :)
- 11 max mutations :)
- Colorless items :)
- Repeated items :)
- Unlimited ammo :)
- Dark levels :(
- Enemies drop a bomb :(
- Explosive doors :(
- Damage if you don't keep killing enemies :(
- Wounds poison you :(
- Kamikazes everywhere :(
- Mist (hidden enemies) :(
- Inquisitors :(
- Spikers (Mushrooms?) :(
- 4-5 extra jumps (didn't count) :)
- Change items every level :(

Originally posted by nightshift:

Within a simple 3 hit combo, you'll already get back 9%. In a second.

6%. You don't heal in the attack you inflict the bleeding with. 3% if you two-shot the enemy, which happens really often. 0% if you one-shot the enemy, which happens with all small enemies. I agree that it's very broken but you're overselling it.

[nightshift]

Yeah. Game has gone overboard with this. God mode enabled in all kinds of ways. Curse aspect allows you to wield the Curse Sword while not being lethal if you get hit + increasing it's already OP damage when you get Cursed. By opening the Cursed Chest before you fight bosses allows you to drop them if a few hits.
But perhaps the most OP of them all is the Assassin Aspect still. Get yourself a Snake's Fang weapon and the Predator mutation and you'll be teleporting from one mob to the other while they all pop and since you're invisible in between, nobody attacks, or if they already started the sequence of attacking, they stop. Might as well just switch all mobs to those Protector practice dummies. If you have some affix that emits a toxic cloud after death, all surrounding mobs also instantly die since that counts as an attack too. This can be best demonstrated by opening up a chest with monsters in it and drop a Smokebomb. Wait until all mobs had spawned and click once to teleport to the first mob and everybody blows up. That's 5 cell for ya'!

My complain is basically that this allows people to reap all the benefits that comes from higher cell modes, like farming cells and abilities while not paying the difficulty price. People will kill bosses flawlessly just by a few hits instead of achieving this by skill. And with Custom Mode, they can easily jump to higher difficulty, with Aspects, they can get all achievements. So god mode can always be enabled without any problem. Now you can say that this should not bother me as it does not affect my game, especially since I don't need to use these "cheat codes" as someone put it. That's true. Yet trying to appeal to newcomers and treat them like babies - I find that belittling and just an incredibly lame practice in general.

Very unfitting for an update with the name "Practice makes perfect" which really just means "git gud".

[MeanJim]

Are you seriously so upset that people can play this in a way that you don't approve of? Life is short, think of all that time you wasted ranting over something so pointless.

[Datora]

Go get 5 cells then come here to talk about Aspects.

First of all you cant get boss cells and flawless achivements when you have active aspects. Second, Aspects are maded for people that have passed game and just wanna have mindless fun with different game modes.
Third, you talk about Assassin Aspect. Yeah, that will help you a lot with bosses...not.

So stop whine, and play game in the way that suites you. And let other people play the way that they want.

[Gynju]

Originally posted by nightshift:

My complain is basically that this allows people to reap all the benefits that comes from higher cell modes, like farming cells and abilities while not paying the difficulty price. People will kill bosses flawlessly just by a few hits instead of achieving this by skill

Why does it matter if someone farms cells faster or beats the boss using Aspects? It is not affecting you in any way, yet you seem agitated that someone may get to the same point as you without putting the same effort. It feels like this whole discussion is sparked from the fact that you want to remain special for beating the game "the right way" and feel your own skill will be invalidated by other people achieving the same with in-game "cheats".

If you don't like them, don't use them. If other people find them fun, they will use them and you can't do anything about it, because the world is not revolving around your opinion how a game should be played.

[Leviathan]

Originally posted by nightshift:

My complain is basically that this allows people to reap all the benefits that comes from higher cell modes, like farming cells and abilities while not paying the difficulty price.

So... you're complaining that the grinding for the 10k cells for the forge is made less tedious?

But anyways. A player will still need to beat 4BC without using aspects to be able to farm at 5BC.

Originally posted by nightshift:

People will kill bosses flawlessly just by a few hits instead of achieving this by skill.

They won't. You can get the flawless kill achievements with aspects.

BTW

Originally posted by nightshift:

When you turn on Hell Mode and 32 heat in Hades, you should get a challenging run.

Unless you enable god mode and reduce all the damage by 80%.

[nightshift]

Originally posted by Belmont:

Go get 5 cells then come here to talk about Aspects.

I don't see how that would make a difference on evaluating my reasoning. Btw I've had this game since the Darkness update (EA), have 1500+ hours and obviously beaten the Collector the old fashioned way multiple times. But then again, that doesn't matter in this regard. I guess we can say that the game is just dear to me, it is the best in years to spend half an hour on and it's sad to see it fall into ruin so hard.

Originally posted by Leviathan:

But anyways. A player will still need to beat 4BC without using aspects to be able to farm at 5BC.

And they can totally do that with enabling the cheats of Custom mode. If that would not be the case, these people defending these ridiculous advantages would never get anywhere - especially now when thanks to these cheats they get used to get ahead without any experience in the game. Otherwise the sudden difficulty spike of managing health and actually fighting and defending against mobs and Champions that take more than a single hit would make them abandon this title - perhaps for the better.

And if anyone really does not have ANY proper reasoning other than the piss-poor one "I can ruin my game, how I want" and nothing else, that's not gonna cut it. Provide actual reason why these would make the game playable and how making 70% of the game's content not matter, the variety that it RELIES on to be a good roguelite just thrown out the window is a good thing. Do that. I presented you with my reasons and backed them up. Your turn. That's how a conversation works. Please don't waste each others time by derailing this thread - it just proves you have nothing to say which just acknowledges and reflects my points. But that's not why you're here right?

[Nini]

Tryhards always need to gatekeep.