Is Super Turbo running too fast? (video included)

[Karl Pilkington]

DSP seems to think so. skip to 2:45 for gameplay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVD7SesP1tA
Its so bad apparently that he rage quit and won't play it anymore. His favorite game of all time.

[Brandon]

Can anybody here actually prove it is running too fast, rather than telling anecdotes and quoting some idiot who's whole shtick is to blame everything else but himself for his failures?

[BeatngU]

I knew about HF running too fast on nearly everything, but was unaware about ST. Been a while since i played on fightcade but doesn't that set the speed to Turbo 1? I always thought it had something to do do lag or savestates or something, but is it cause Turbo 2 is too fast on fightcade?

[MoltenFrost2021]

Here’s the thing, even if he’s right, this is the standardized version because that’s what most people have been playing lately.

He didn’t like the switch version due to sirlins changes being included and vk but still played it for a year.

If there’s no other version people play then it becomes the standard, whether he likes it or not. It’s on him to adapt and adjust instead of complaining about something that is pretty much set in stone.

[Falkentyne]

Originally posted by Not YSB:

Can anybody here actually prove it is running too fast, rather than telling anecdotes and quoting some idiot who's whole shtick is to blame everything else but himself for his failures?

This was discussed years ago.
Callus (Sardu's emulator) ran Hyper fighting at arcade perfect speed.
The board was compared side by side with the original board. That's all the proof you need.
You can grab your own ORIGINAL Hyper fighting board (I'm not sure if this was just a Champion Edition board with new PROMS for hyper fighting or not) or try to find some old arcade machine and compare it. Do NOT use any machine that has selectable games, as they are ALWAYS usiing emulators !!!!

MAME dev admited that the reason HF ran fast (it ran even faster than what we have here) is due to lack of wait states (CPU or memory, not sure) being emulated; I'm not sure if wait states are some sort of programming trick or not intentionally done on the original hardware to keep it playable. But the exact same issue affected Super SF2 Turbo AND SF Alpha 3 on MAME.

Turbo 2 (Super Turbo) is the same as Hyper Fighting speed which is why our T2 here is identical to HF, but they are both running too fast. Go google a Super SF2 turbo service manual and you will see the proper speed settings listed and the equivalent of the orignal boards.

The entire main issue is that there is *NO* emulator which runs these games at proper speed, except Callus, and there is NO source code for Callus (it was written in assembly language!!!!), and Callus didn't run SSF2T due to encryption at the time. If it had, more people would have recognized the speed problem and it would have been addressed much sooner most likely.

So Capcom would have had to written their OWN by scratch emulator, rather than using MAME based CPU sources, and there lies the problem. It's really difficult to fix without having sources available.

James Goddard (?) was one of the HF programmers. Spoke to him many years ago in email, when I was trying to determine if there were hidden dip switches that would make Hyper Fighting run too fast intentionally.

Street Figher 2, Champion Edition and "Turbo 0" speed in ST are arcade perfect because they run at a fixed CPU cycles speed, rather than unthrottled. You don't need wait states for dealing with that.

------------------------------------------
BTW there is another trick.

Find an ORIGINAL arcade machine for Hyper Fighting or an original mainboard (NO EMULATED HACK BOARDS WITH ROMS, ORIGNAL ONLY).
.
Turn the machine off and on.
Look at the "power on ROM test". Notice the speed of the test. Time it perfectly.

Then do same thing on MAME. You will notice that the power on test goes MUCH faster.
That's your lack of wait states right there.

--------Edit-------
Someone asked about Fightcade or other emulators running slower.
Back during the day, I was comparing HF on Callus and MAME and I told the MAME dev team that setting the emulated CPU to 65% or 74% speed caused MAME to run HF much closer to original speed, and also made ST Turbo 3 more bearable as well, so some MAME builds, as well as FinalBurn Alpha (?) used these throttles I suggested. But this was over 15 years ago. I haven't been in the scene for ages so I don't know what's changed. But I do know that that 65% throttle no longer seems to work properly now. Might be due to MUCH faster CPU's in use these days. We were testing on Pentium 3's and Pentium 4's back then........

[Dacaskos]

Falkentyne "knows his ♥♥♥♥", like english native speakers would say lol.

Just adding, I've compared the collection to real hardware (I actually still have HF, SSF2X and SFA3 boards), and... honestly I think it's pretty "spot on", as far as "nowadays emulation" goes. HF, for example, pretty much feels like playing it on Groovymame at 70% clock speed, so imho they did a "good job", it's just like that.

But yes, for some reason... Callus is still king on that department, with all its flaws. Go figure.

Funny thing you only needed a Pentium 266mhz and 16mb of RAM to play it fullspeed lolz.

[Azza]

Originally posted by Falkentyne:

Originally posted by Not YSB:

Can anybody here actually prove it is running too fast, rather than telling anecdotes and quoting some idiot who's whole shtick is to blame everything else but himself for his failures?

This was discussed years ago.
Callus (Sardu's emulator) ran Hyper fighting at arcade perfect speed.
The board was compared side by side with the original board. That's all the proof you need.
You can grab your own ORIGINAL Hyper fighting board (I'm not sure if this was just a Champion Edition board with new PROMS for hyper fighting or not) or try to find some old arcade machine and compare it. Do NOT use any machine that has selectable games, as they are ALWAYS usiing emulators !!!!

MAME dev admited that the reason HF ran fast (it ran even faster than what we have here) is due to lack of wait states (CPU or memory, not sure) being emulated; I'm not sure if wait states are some sort of programming trick or not intentionally done on the original hardware to keep it playable. But the exact same issue affected Super SF2 Turbo AND SF Alpha 3 on MAME.

Turbo 2 (Super Turbo) is the same as Hyper Fighting speed which is why our T2 here is identical to HF, but they are both running too fast. Go google a Super SF2 turbo service manual and you will see the proper speed settings listed and the equivalent of the orignal boards.

The entire main issue is that there is *NO* emulator which runs these games at proper speed, except Callus, and there is NO source code for Callus (it was written in assembly language!!!!), and Callus didn't run SSF2T due to encryption at the time. If it had, more people would have recognized the speed problem and it would have been addressed much sooner most likely.

So Capcom would have had to written their OWN by scratch emulator, rather than using MAME based CPU sources, and there lies the problem. It's really difficult to fix without having sources available.

James Goddard (?) was one of the HF programmers. Spoke to him many years ago in email, when I was trying to determine if there were hidden dip switches that would make Hyper Fighting run too fast intentionally.

Street Figher 2, Champion Edition and "Turbo 0" speed in ST are arcade perfect because they run at a fixed CPU cycles speed, rather than unthrottled. You don't need wait states for dealing with that.

------------------------------------------
BTW there is another trick.

Find an ORIGINAL arcade machine for Hyper Fighting or an original mainboard (NO EMULATED HACK BOARDS WITH ROMS, ORIGNAL ONLY).
.
Turn the machine off and on.
Look at the "power on ROM test". Notice the speed of the test. Time it perfectly.

Then do same thing on MAME. You will notice that the power on test goes MUCH faster.
That's your lack of wait states right there.

--------Edit-------
Someone asked about Fightcade or other emulators running slower.
Back during the day, I was comparing HF on Callus and MAME and I told the MAME dev team that setting the emulated CPU to 65% or 74% speed caused MAME to run HF much closer to original speed, and also made ST Turbo 3 more bearable as well, so some MAME builds, as well as FinalBurn Alpha (?) used these throttles I suggested. But this was over 15 years ago. I haven't been in the scene for ages so I don't know what's changed. But I do know that that 65% throttle no longer seems to work properly now. Might be due to MUCH faster CPU's in use these days. We were testing on Pentium 3's and Pentium 4's back then........

Very interesting read.

So all games with Turbo mode have incorrect speeds.
I had read conflicting reports about Hyper Fighter being faster than ST unless ST was set to Turbo 3 (4 in Japan) in which case the speeds where the same. Do you know if thats true?

Also do you if is it true that Street Fighter III 3rd Strike ran at 59.5 frames in the arcade?

[Karl Pilkington]

Its a shame a million (or is it billion) dollar corp. can't get the speed right

[mrrogers]

Besides running too fast does this game drop inputs ever? Sometimes I really cant get supers or dps but is it just me or really the game dropping inputs?

[Karl Pilkington]

I really can't answer that , regarding dropped inputs. DSP also complains about Phantom Inputs (aka he puts in something and a different move comes out) As well as Dropped Inputs (where he claims to have put in the necessary input control to execute a move. yet it fails to execute)

[Karl Pilkington]

they probably will not. patches are not a good historical precident in any capcom game.

[Azza]

Originally posted by KaizokuNinja:

Its not that Turbo is "too fast" its that they put in the broken initial release that they ended up recalling. Now that we can access the file that effectively controls the dipswitches and test modes it is clear to see. The wide release version of Super Turbo had a option select to allow the player to adjust the speed in game...the broken release did not. Since that switch is not in the data file it confirms that Crapcom gave us the recalled release of the game. In that version the AI and speed were locked regardless of what the switches/settings were put on. REALLY HOPING those morons at Crapcom patch this with the fixed arcade release.

I never heard ST had a broken initial release that was recalled, Where did you come across that information, do you have a link?

As far as I'm aware the A.I was never fixed in any revision of the game released outside of Japan.

I stand to be corrected though.

[fuller556]

The game definitely runs too fast. In fact, it ignores the speed setting you choose in the Options Menu. Even if you slow it down to Turbo 1, it runs at Turbo 3 speed when played off-line.

[DPCancels]

The game runs faster than arcade. DSP is right.

[Firehawke]

Super Turbo actually does drop inputs on the arcade version too because it drops frames to keep the speed up and this drops the inputs for those frames too. This is why the game tends to have a very "strict" feel on inputs.

[Sweeper]

Originally posted by Falkentyne:

Guys, this debate again?
My god.

I mentioned this YEARS ago.
ST is running too fast. I remember my last tournament was played on Turbo 3 (US version), as it was preset for turbo 3. The turbo 2 setting used on this version is as fast as the Turbo 3 USA setting originally was. Turbo 2 is not supposed to be this fast.

And before you guys start talking about the Japanese version, the japanese version had 4 turbo settings. Turbo 0, 1, 2, and 3. Turbo 0 was identical to the original Street Fighter 2. Turbo 1 was slightly faster. Turbo 2 was equal to Hyper Fighting speed and Turbo 3 was the fastest.

Before you guys try to argue with this, I had the actual manual for Super Turbo. The manual specifically stated that Turbo 2 = hyper fighting speed. Yet turbo 2 here as everyone sees is significantly faster than the arcade Hyper Fighting machine.

Download Callus and find the HF rom (it will be a much older romset version than what is currently used in MAME) and install it, then you'll see how Hyper Fighting AND "Turbo 2" was supposed to run.

I believe the American version had Turbo 0 also, but ONLY accessible in the service menu of the game, and not selectable as an actual in game option. Turbo 1 was slightly slower than Hyper Fighting and Turbo 2 was the same speed as Hyper fighting.

The issue with Super Turbo running too fast goes back to the MAME emulator core. It had something to do with wait states that were never emulated properly. This causes the game to run too fast. For those who do not remember, Street Fighter 2 and Champion Edition were run at a fixed frequency. Hyper Fighting (the original arcade version) was running completely unthrottled. The Callus emualator (written by Sardu) ran Hyper Fighting at perfect speed.

However the MAME version showed the serious problem with the game being unthrottled without wait states. Hyper Fighting basically ran FASTER on MAME, than Turbo 3 ever ran in the arcades in Super Turbo. And the last time I checked a MAME build (about a year ago), HF was still running too fast. And when I say too fast, I mean the game is completely unplayable.

The issue with wait states and hardware differences between arcade and emulated versions cause the same problems that originally plagued PPP and KKK presses not registering on the old emulators in MS DOS and Windows XP, without workarounds implemented, while the arcade machines had no problems with these.

I have not purchased this collection nor have I seen Hyper Fighting yet. However the Turbo 2 setting that is played here is equal more or less to the original Turbo 3 on the old arcade machines.

*Edit*
Just saw a HF stream. Definitely running too fast. Seems to be equal to ST turbo 2 (which is also running too fast). HF is supposd to be slower, and so is ST Turbo 2 (they are supposed to run at the same speed, as anyone with an original board would know).

i did read all u say. and im with u. but the rabid fans will hate u for critisizing this version.
i have said a lotta things about every single version and also the different arcade revisions.
the reason nothing changes is while we fight for a proper final revision of each arcade series we get fought by rabid fans who are basically accepted as people of the steam board of

sfv and sf30

go on about this enough and u will get banned. the only street fighter i have left installed is usf4 and i have fightcade cuz well dem peeps makin sf30 didnt give jack about us. they took easy road fast cash and fast runaway. even the patch was originally made on some dude who manually fixed it in one day.

the easy road is they only took cps models since they were allready emulated by homebrewers who did it for free. capcom felt justified to take it without asking. the sf30 emu is actually the very same u use and download from emu paradise. its literally the same. the netcode is suspiciously on par with fightcade

1. vanilla versions aka proto's cps
(no final revision arcade)
- alpha 3 upper (naomi based on windows CE direct X 6) how hard can it be
- alpha 2 gold
- sf3 OE(its not arcade but still. there is one dfinal arcade rev with gil)
-ssf2turbo the very first proto not updated to the latest rev that was released in both ♥♥♥ and city play and spielothek at the time)
2. ragequitters dont always get punished
3. just like street fighter V even today, sf30 ragequitting has become the norm
4. street fighter in common unlike other fighting games where people behave as adults including youngsters. street fighter has the most horrible rabid trollin drama queens, and i am not taking that back. also i am not generalizing but u cant tell me that it is good behaviour to post stuff like. look i killed a noob. thats just dumb.
5. bugs and glitches still not fixed
- mofo's still didnt fix the sound issue
-5 bar is also 1 bar still lagadoodoo land
- my game still gets resetted resulting me going to settings to fullscreen
- in lobby i cant jump in my turn most of the time
- they said they disable akuma, well i still see akuma's they only killed the command how to enable akuma which s easy to re enable by editing text.

YEAH SUPER TURBO IS RUNNING TO FAST