NOR and/or NAND gates

[MutantVampire]

I think that adding NOR/NAND gates will allow logic to get much more complex and interesting, because both have the property of functional completeness. For example, I'm fairly sure that then you could make a binary counter.

[BloodyRain2k]

While we're at it, most 'engines', like props, rotors, etc, need to be throttle-able.
That they can just be on/off is really bothersome.

On top of needing that do they also need to be able to receive analog input from the logics so it's possible to build balancing systems.
And something missing for that is either a relative Altimeter or just a gyroscope.

[alvaroping1]

Publicado originalmente por MutantVampire:

I think that adding NOR/NAND gates will allow logic to get much more complex and interesting, because both have the property of functional completeness. For example, I'm fairly sure that then you could make a binary counter.

You can make a nor gate by adding an always on input to an xor gate, after you have a nor you can make the output of all other gates go through it to get their inverted version. Also binary counters don't need nor/nand gates, i have already made them without the use of those gates

Publicado originalmente por BloodyRain2k:

While we're at it, most 'engines', like props, rotors, etc, need to be throttle-able.
That they can just be on/off is really bothersome.

On top of needing that do they also need to be able to receive analog input from the logics so it's possible to build balancing systems.
And something missing for that is either a relative Altimeter or just a gyroscope.

The output value of logic gates is the % of power engines use, an output value of 0.5 will make an engine use 50% power, if it's negative they will go in the reverse direction (if they can, if they can't they will still go in the forward direction). Balancing systems have already been done, you don't need a gyroscope (although it has been suggested a lot and the devs have tried adding it), the way they work is by using either speed sensors (to hover at any height) pointing down with 0 speed which detects when an specific part of your vehicle is falling connected to thrusters to cancel that speed, distance sensors (to hover when close to the ground) pointing to the side connected to something that can make the vehicle rotate to stabilice it or altitude sensors (to hover near the water) since water level is 0 height

[BloodyRain2k]

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

speed sensors (to hover at any height) pointing down with 0 speed which detects when an specific part of your vehicle is falling connected to thrusters to cancel that speed

Well, that's something I didn't even know: that speed sensors are directional.

[alvaroping1]

Publicado originalmente por BloodyRain2k:

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

speed sensors (to hover at any height) pointing down with 0 speed which detects when an specific part of your vehicle is falling connected to thrusters to cancel that speed

Well, that's something I didn't even know: that speed sensors are directional.

I made an extremly detailed guide a while ago about logic gates and sensors with all the technical mechanics they have, you can find it here: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/425259359707332608/539060740519100426/Logic_Gates_guide.rtf

[Asynchron]

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

You can make a nor gate by adding an always on input to an xor gate, after you have a nor you can make the output of all other gates go through it to get their inverted version. Also binary counters don't need nor/nand gates, i have already made them without the use of those gates

While it is possible to make a not operation out of xor and a sensor, the quality of life will be improved, if at least not operator were to be added.

[alvaroping1]

Publicado originalmente por Asynchron:

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

You can make a nor gate by adding an always on input to an xor gate, after you have a nor you can make the output of all other gates go through it to get their inverted version. Also binary counters don't need nor/nand gates, i have already made them without the use of those gates

While it is possible to make a not operation out of xor and a sensor, the quality of life will be improved, if at least not operator were to be added.

it won't, since it already takes a single block to achieve that purpose. The sensor can be reused for a lot of NOT gates, and it also has other uses outside of creating NOT gates. That means that in a lot of cases you won't be able to remove it even if a dedicated NOT gate was added

[Asynchron]

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

it won't, since it already takes a single block to achieve that purpose. The sensor can be reused for a lot of NOT gates, and it also has other uses outside of creating NOT gates.

To clarify, quality of life will increase because you'll have a dedicated block, and pictogram on that block, denoting nand/nor/not gates, which will make the complex circuits less confusing compared to current situation, since you'll be able to detect easily which are 'not' blocks, and which aren't. This isn't the case now, and if another person tries to modify the circuit, it will be a lot harder for him to figure out what component does what due to same xor pictogram.

Anyway, I'm not advocating for adding all types of logic gates in the game, but rather the bare minimum, which usually is: and, or, xor, and not. We're just missing not gate for minimal happiness (my happiness tbh).

[alvaroping1]

Publicado originalmente por Asynchron:

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

it won't, since it already takes a single block to achieve that purpose. The sensor can be reused for a lot of NOT gates, and it also has other uses outside of creating NOT gates.

To clarify, quality of life will increase because you'll have a dedicated block, and pictogram on that block, denoting nand/nor/not gates, which will make the complex circuits less confusing compared to current situation, since you'll be able to detect easily which are 'not' blocks, and which aren't. This isn't the case now, and if another person tries to modify the circuit, it will be a lot harder for him to figure out what component does what due to same xor pictogram.

Anyway, I'm not advocating for adding all types of logic gates in the game, but rather the bare minimum, which usually is: and, or, xor, and not. We're just missing not gate for minimal happiness (my happiness tbh).

As someone who has spent hundreds of hours playing with logic gates, i can say that NAND/XNOR gates are harder to understand and think about than simple AND/XOR gates connected to a NOT gate, so those will be unutilized in most cases

As for seeing the difference between NOR/NOT gates and XOR gates it's already fairly easy, just select the always on sensor and look at which XOR gates it sends an output to, those will be NOR/NOT gates. Adding a dedicated block would have very little benefits on that regard, while still taking resources to develop it which could be better spent somewhere else (if you like logic for example, being able to change the intensity of lights/their color through the output value would allow a ton of new possibilities for making screens for logic circuits)

[Asynchron]

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

As for seeing the difference between NOR/NOT gates and XOR gates it's already fairly easy, just select the always on sensor and look at which XOR gates it sends an output to, those will be NOR/NOT gates.

Yeah, and that is the problem. When you need to keep in mind lots of gates, and build the circuit, having to keep in mind also which xor gates are actually not gates, doesn't help a lot. You need time to get used to quickly memorize them, which is not pleasant for people that don't spend lots of time in the game, and want just to enjoy tinkering with automation in the game.

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

Adding a dedicated block would have very little benefits on that regard, while still taking resources to develop it which could be better spent somewhere else (if you like logic for example, being able to change the intensity of lights/their color through the output value would allow a ton of new possibilities for making screens for logic circuits)

Regarding developer, time, lets leave this to the actual developers, as they know the code base, and can estimate better than us how much time it will take to add a couple of blocks.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue, but rather to leave a +1, to the proposal so the devs could see that there is interest from more than one person, for the feature to be implemented in some form.

[alvaroping1]

Publicado originalmente por Asynchron:

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

As for seeing the difference between NOR/NOT gates and XOR gates it's already fairly easy, just select the always on sensor and look at which XOR gates it sends an output to, those will be NOR/NOT gates.

Yeah, and that is the problem. When you need to keep in mind lots of gates, and build the circuit, having to keep in mind also which xor gates are actually not gates, doesn't help a lot. You need time to get used to quickly memorize them, which is not pleasant for people that don't spend lots of time in the game, and want just to enjoy tinkering with automation in the game.

That seems like a you problem of being unorganised imho. I have worked in creations using hundreds of logic gates without having that problem at any point, and i have never had to intentionally try to memorise which XOR gates are actually NOT/NOR gates

Publicado originalmente por Asynchron:

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

Adding a dedicated block would have very little benefits on that regard, while still taking resources to develop it which could be better spent somewhere else (if you like logic for example, being able to change the intensity of lights/their color through the output value would allow a ton of new possibilities for making screens for logic circuits)

Regarding developer, time, lets leave this to the actual developers, as they know the code base, and can estimate better than us how much time it will take to add a couple of blocks.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue, but rather to leave a +1, to the proposal so the devs could see that there is interest from more than one person, for the feature to be implemented in some form.

In general, if it can already be achieved it most likely won't be added as a dedicated block. That's something the devs have confirmed, and they have explicitily said it's something they take into account when discussing new blocks

[Darkling]

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

Publicado originalmente por Asynchron:

Yeah, and that is the problem. When you need to keep in mind lots of gates, and build the circuit, having to keep in mind also which xor gates are actually not gates, doesn't help a lot. You need time to get used to quickly memorize them, which is not pleasant for people that don't spend lots of time in the game, and want just to enjoy tinkering with automation in the game.

That seems like a you problem of being unorganised imho. I have worked in creations using hundreds of logic gates without having that problem at any point, and i have never had to intentionally try to memorise which XOR gates are actually NOT/NOR gates

Publicado originalmente por Asynchron:

Regarding developer, time, lets leave this to the actual developers, as they know the code base, and can estimate better than us how much time it will take to add a couple of blocks.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue, but rather to leave a +1, to the proposal so the devs could see that there is interest from more than one person, for the feature to be implemented in some form.

In general, if it can already be achieved it most likely won't be added as a dedicated block. That's something the devs have confirmed, and they have explicitily said it's something they take into account when discussing new blocks

just because you have no issue with the current set of logic blocks doesn't mean the devs can't improve the game with added logic. I don't see what disagreement there could be to adding more functionality to the game.

[alvaroping1]

Publicado originalmente por Darkling:

Publicado originalmente por alvaroping1:

That seems like a you problem of being unorganised imho. I have worked in creations using hundreds of logic gates without having that problem at any point, and i have never had to intentionally try to memorise which XOR gates are actually NOT/NOR gates


In general, if it can already be achieved it most likely won't be added as a dedicated block. That's something the devs have confirmed, and they have explicitily said it's something they take into account when discussing new blocks

just because you have no issue with the current set of logic blocks doesn't mean the devs can't improve the game with added logic. I don't see what disagreement there could be to adding more functionality to the game.

the fact that resources are limited, which means that not everything can be added. Adding something also means not adding something else. That's why in general the devs would rather spend those limited resources on adding blocks which allow new possibilities than on those which just make things that can already be achieved slightly easier to do (which additionally in this case would be a very small difference as already discussed. If you really want to improve the logic aspect of the game there are a lot of things that would be way more useful than NOT/NOR gates)