Good for game development fundamentals?

[Ankagara]

So there are a million threads asking the question which place is a good start for beginner devs and so I decided to give the most common engines a whirl. So far I’ve tried Godot and Unity, which both have their pros and cons, just as GM2 has.

My issue right now is that I’m just as much working on getting to know the syntax of the several languages as, getting used to the UI as well as learning how games are actually structured.

GM often gets recommended because it allows you to focus on the building part and not so much the syntax etc.

Ultimately I’d like build games in something like Unity, but right now I’d rather focus on how games are generally structured. What is good practice and such. But preferably through a practical way considering time constraints.

I’ve followed some beginner tutorials on youtube for Godot and Unity but are generally just good for teaching you how THEY go about building a certain type of game and not so much about what the reasoning is behind the structures. That and I found they go about it in ways that I’ve learned are not really good practice, which I don’t like.

Somy actual question is the following:
Is GM2 good for getting a sense of how to properly structure your games in a practical way, as a hobbyist? So I can take that knowledge tomorr “flexible” engines later?

[Blind]

> Is GM2 good for getting a sense of how to properly structure your games in a practical way, as a hobbyist? So I can take that knowledge tomorr “flexible” engines later?

Nah, I mean - it's neither good nor bad; it's as exactly neutral as any other engine... none of them actuallyteach anything about good game design beyond the programming

I'll even throw out a nice example; Super Mario Maker (1 and/or 2). You can immediately build and even know the tools involved, the rules of every doodad and actor (ehh, prop and creature)... but it won't teach you anything about good game design.

It's something you really can only get a feel for by playing other games (or trying and failiing a few times)

However, if you'd like to know more about Game Design... ask away!

[Ankagara]

Originally posted by Blind:

> Is GM2 good for getting a sense of how to properly structure your games in a practical way, as a hobbyist? So I can take that knowledge tomorr “flexible” engines later?

Nah, I mean - it's neither good nor bad; it's as exactly neutral as any other engine... none of them actuallyteach anything about good game design beyond the programming

I'll even throw out a nice example; Super Mario Maker (1 and/or 2). You can immediately build and even know the tools involved, the rules of every doodad and actor (ehh, prop and creature)... but it won't teach you anything about good game design.

It's something you really can only get a feel for by playing other games (or trying and failiing a few times)

However, if you'd like to know more about Game Design... ask away! :cactuar:

I figured, since GM does a lot of the work for you compared to other engines, in terms of providing structure, it might inherently contain a sort of industry standard structure for games and by using it a lot you would subconsciously learn a decent way of setting up games. But I gather from your answer this is not the case.

Can you provide me a little background information on how you formed your answer? Have you done work in all the engines I’ve mentioned?

[Blind]

Originally posted by Ankagara:

I figured, since GM does a lot of the work for you compared to other engines, in terms of providing structure, it might inherently contain a sort of industry standard structure for games and by using it a lot you would subconsciously learn a decent way of setting up games. But I gather from your answer this is not the case.

Can you provide me a little background information on how you formed your answer? Have you done work in all the engines I’ve mentioned?

It's not that, I just meant in terms of Game Design since I thought that's what you were talking about.

I realise, now, that I don't know what you were initially asking.

As for my background, I've been a hobbyist for about 30 years and have no commercial successes as my background is in, aside from the little toy games I make for myself, non-profit educational software for what was my local high school at the time.

I highly doubt they're still using said software tho, time being time after all

[Ankagara]

Originally posted by Blind:

Originally posted by Ankagara:

I figured, since GM does a lot of the work for you compared to other engines, in terms of providing structure, it might inherently contain a sort of industry standard structure for games and by using it a lot you would subconsciously learn a decent way of setting up games. But I gather from your answer this is not the case.

Can you provide me a little background information on how you formed your answer? Have you done work in all the engines I’ve mentioned?

It's not that, I just meant in terms of Game Design since I thought that's what you were talking about.

I realise, now, that I don't know what you were initially asking.

As for my background, I've been a hobbyist for about 30 years and have no commercial successes as my background is in, aside from the little toy games I make for myself, non-profit educational software for what was my local high school at the time.

I highly doubt they're still using said software tho, time being time after all

No, you weren’t entirely wrong! It is related to game design in general. I was just wondering if it somehow inherently teaches you about game design, through the built in structure.

But! I literally just found a book which is exactly what I was looking for, called “Game Programming Patterns” by Robert Nystrom. You can read it for free on the web or buy a book. Just started reading it, but if the intro is indicative for how the rest of the book turns out I will definitely support the author by buying it.

I really appreciate that you took the time to reply. Thank you!

I’m also currently watching a great youtube tutorial on GM2 by Shaun Spalding. He’s going through GM2 in a very structured manner, but also giving tips on good practice and giving me some more insight in the GM2 workflow. Pretty close to getting Game Maker since I want to start out doing 2D games anyway and it will get me on my way quicker in a smaller, fun and more practical way, whilst I read up on the more complex theory and practices and such on the side so I can prepare for possible bigger things later down the road :)

[Ankagara]

Actually: have you used Godot? If so: how would you compare it to GM2? Does one have your preference? I did some stuff in it already, but I have a feeling the UI in GM2 is a bitter better.

[Blind]

> No, you weren’t entirely wrong! It is related to game design in general. I was just wondering if it somehow inherently teaches you about game design, through the built in structure.

Ah, no - no program does that. Just like you can't learn storytelling from a dictionary.

> I’m also currently watching a great youtube tutorial on GM2 by Shaun Spalding.

I look forward to your next 3 error topics :V ... the Shaun Spaldin tutorials are great, but rather old so every week or so there's someone who runs into a simple problem like not declaring a variable.

> Actually: have you used Godot? If so: how would you compare it to GM2? Does one have your preference? I did some stuff in it already, but I have a feeling the UI in GM2 is a bitter better.

I haven't used much other than Gamemaker recently, so IDK

[Ankagara]

Originally posted by Blind:

> No, you weren’t entirely wrong! It is related to game design in general. I was just wondering if it somehow inherently teaches you about game design, through the built in structure.

Ah, no - no program does that. Just like you can't learn storytelling from a dictionary.

> I’m also currently watching a great youtube tutorial on GM2 by Shaun Spalding.

I look forward to your next 3 error topics :V ... the Shaun Spaldin tutorials are great, but rather old so every week or so there's someone who runs into a simple problem like not declaring a variable.

> Actually: have you used Godot? If so: how would you compare it to GM2? Does one have your preference? I did some stuff in it already, but I have a feeling the UI in GM2 is a bitter better.

I haven't used much other than Gamemaker recently, so IDK

Haha luckily I’m not entirely new to programming and the first thing a half decent programmer needs to learn is how not to reinvent the wheel aka know how to google solutions, so I’m not too worried about finding out how to declare a variable.

[fluchschütze]

Hey!

Originally posted by Ankagara:

Actually: have you used Godot? If so: how would you compare it to GM2? Does one have your preference? I did some stuff in it already, but I have a feeling the UI in GM2 is a bitter better.

Sorry to butt-into this question but I'd like to give you my opinion:

In my honest opinion Godot is a bit better than GMS2 (You get all of the platform exports for free in Godot, which to me is a huuuuge plus)

Godot has a better Script-reading organization, in GMS2 sadly you have to look around the Workspace to know where that object player is when you have a bunch of stuff open, it's a nightmare. (Maybe there is a shortcut, but if you have like 15 objects open and scripts, good luck finding anything ><)

GMS2 give you really simple 2D control (Position with x,y, drawing-has a built in sprite editor) while Godot takes a bit longer to learn (Vectors for position, doesnt have a built in sprite editor) but to me it was fun to learn it!

I HAVEN'T DONE TEST WITH THIS but i think the physics engine in Godot might be better than GMS2 (since they have a 3D engine i think they use that??). I just remember everyone in every tutorial saying "DON'T TOUCH THE PHYSICS OPTIONS". I will eventually test this thought.

The node system in Godot to me is pure gold

If you find a thing you don't like in Godot or want to add something to the engine, you can get the source code, add what you need and recompile it, in GMS2 you're stuck with what you've got (i'm talking to you downgraded sprite editor)

I'd recommend you to check out Heartbeast for Godot AND Gamemaker tutorials. He also has a video on 'gms2 vs godot' that you might want to watch!

I hope all this spaghetti made a bit of sense!

[Blind]

Noice, built in nodes support for 3d games is really good.

[fluchschütze]

Originally posted by Blind:

Noice, built in nodes support for 3d games is really good.

Yep!

Originally posted by Ankagara:

Actually: have you used Godot? If so: how would you compare it to GM2? Does one have your preference? I did some stuff in it already, but I have a feeling the UI in GM2 is a bitter better.

For some reason I didn't say anything about the UI design in Godot so:

Godot has a way better UI system than GMS2, you have dedicated UI nodes to do everything you'd like to make, also a big thing is: THEMES!

You can basically make a theme, put it as a default and every UI node will use that, basically doing the graphical-design for you, it's truly amazing!
-----------------------

I helped making the main menu in a game called DEAD (You can find it here in steam!) and trust me it was a bit tedious (not complicated) to make it, main menu + adding the particles + using the steam API for leader boards, showing everything where it should be.

I tried remaking the UI for it and even added multiplayer (also it's using the Steam api to get my steam name and using the steam lobby system as a masterserver) in Godot. I didn't finish it because I don't have as much time as I'd like to but here is a little preview, it was faster than my GMS implementation and to me it looks better, even thought i didn't use any themes, with themes it would look really really good

https://i.gyazo.com/45164f3c8237cba7930350475a250b98.mp4

(The background is a shader applied to a UI node too!)

I like the fact that i can just place a node, give it text and then use signals to connect it, give it some code and poof! button done, i just have to drag it around to see where i want it to be.

Talking about MP/networking, its a nightmare in GMS2 (Everyone will also tell you to not use gms2 for networking), Godot has a High level multiplayer API, from what i understand: it's designed for it, so you don't have to be doing workarounds (trying to send a list thru a buffer in gms2 was truly horrible)

Now me is done! If you has any questions i'll try to reply to the best of my abilities!

[Pure Mental Games]

To OP; I'd suggest searching for some decent books on game design and also best coding practice. Such as Level Up (Scott Rodgers) or The Pragmatic Programmer (Thomas/Hunt) - these are very different & there are many in between! Sounds like you've already gone down that route?

GMS2 is loosely-typed & will let you away with a lot in terms of code structure etc, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't learn or adhere as closely as possible to best practices.

Good luck!