Was the Phantom Ruby a good idea?

[Ikagura]

I mean I can see how it was made to justify the existence of Mania and the "link" with Sonic Forces but this mcguffin was more like an excuse rather than an interresting part of the story...

I'm already tired of the Chaos Emeralds being used as a Deus Ex Machina in the games (I'm one of those who thinks that they should only be used as a post-game bonus rather than a story element)

I seriously hope they won't have to use that thing in the next Sonic game (either classic or modern).

[mdesaleah]

That complaint about the Chaos Emeralds isn’t even valid anymore xD. The last time they were used as a part of the story properly was Unleashed, if anything, the series needs more cohesive stories instead of milking nostalgia. Generations doesn’t really count since the story in that game isnt really a story. The way Mania does it is fine though. A final boss mechanic and unlockable Super Sonic in main levels

[Ikagura]

Originally posted by mdesaleah:

That complaint about the Chaos Emeralds isn’t even valid anymore xD. The last time they were used as a part of the story properly was Unleashed, if anything, the series needs more cohesive stories instead of milking nostalgia. Generations doesn’t really count since the story in that game isnt really a story. The way Mania does it is fine though. A final boss mechanic and unlockable Super Sonic in main levels

The chaos emeralds were mostly bonus stuff since the first game (yay for doing tedious things only to get a longer ending scene)

Sonic 3 & Knuckles managed to have better special stages (seriously screw the half-pipes in Sonic 2) and a rather epic final boss (even if the half-pipes and secret final bosses were rehashed a lot of time).

I agree that the fact that Sonic Color has a true final boss with super sonic made me like the DS version over the Wii one

Even if stories aren't needed for the Sonic serie (I mean Mario has the same "Bowser kidnapping Peach" story in every of his game and manages to have good games all over the serie) I want something good, not darker and edgier like in the 2000's nor stupid and ridiculous like in the 2010's. Even Kirby managed to have rather good stories in their most recent games!

"Milking Nostalgia" itself isn't bad, it's the way you do it.

I think some fangames managed to make the final boss and special stages better than the official ones. I especially love how Sonic After the Sequel DX had a "story mode" that lets you see the final boss with Super Sonic (which I won't spoil but I want to say that seeing Super without a stressful 50 second timer and being on foot with a legit boss fight is better than anything)


Tl:Dr Half-pipes are bad, special stages should be better overal, final bosses shouldn't be locked behind the chaos emeralds or forced side stories.

[mdesaleah]

Originally posted by Ikagura:

Originally posted by mdesaleah:

That complaint about the Chaos Emeralds isn’t even valid anymore xD. The last time they were used as a part of the story properly was Unleashed, if anything, the series needs more cohesive stories instead of milking nostalgia. Generations doesn’t really count since the story in that game isnt really a story. The way Mania does it is fine though. A final boss mechanic and unlockable Super Sonic in main levels

The chaos emeralds were mostly bonus stuff since the first game (yay for doing tedious things only to get a longer ending scene)

Sonic 3 & Knuckles managed to have better special stages (seriously screw the half-pipes in Sonic 2) and a rather epic final boss (even if the half-pipes and secret final bosses were rehashed a lot of time).

I agree that the fact that Sonic Color has a true final boss with super sonic made me like the DS version over the Wii one

Even if stories aren't needed for the Sonic serie (I mean Mario has the same "Bowser kidnapping Peach" story in every of his game and manages to have good games all over the serie) I want something good, not darker and edgier like in the 2000's nor stupid and ridiculous like in the 2010's. Even Kirby managed to have rather good stories in their most recent games!

"Milking Nostalgia" itself isn't bad, it's the way you do it.

I think some fangames managed to make the final boss and special stages better than the official ones. I especially love how Sonic After the Sequel DX had a "story mode" that lets you see the final boss with Super Sonic (which I won't spoil but I want to say that seeing Super without a stressful 50 second timer and being on foot with a legit boss fight is better than anything)


Tl:Dr Half-pipes are bad, special stages should be better overal, final bosses shouldn't be locked behind the chaos emeralds or forced side stories.

Agreed there. The half pipes are getting old now xD.

[Dark Redshift]

Originally posted by mdesaleah:

Originally posted by Ikagura:

The chaos emeralds were mostly bonus stuff since the first game (yay for doing tedious things only to get a longer ending scene)

Sonic 3 & Knuckles managed to have better special stages (seriously screw the half-pipes in Sonic 2) and a rather epic final boss (even if the half-pipes and secret final bosses were rehashed a lot of time).

I agree that the fact that Sonic Color has a true final boss with super sonic made me like the DS version over the Wii one

Even if stories aren't needed for the Sonic serie (I mean Mario has the same "Bowser kidnapping Peach" story in every of his game and manages to have good games all over the serie) I want something good, not darker and edgier like in the 2000's nor stupid and ridiculous like in the 2010's. Even Kirby managed to have rather good stories in their most recent games!

"Milking Nostalgia" itself isn't bad, it's the way you do it.

I think some fangames managed to make the final boss and special stages better than the official ones. I especially love how Sonic After the Sequel DX had a "story mode" that lets you see the final boss with Super Sonic (which I won't spoil but I want to say that seeing Super without a stressful 50 second timer and being on foot with a legit boss fight is better than anything)


Tl:Dr Half-pipes are bad, special stages should be better overal, final bosses shouldn't be locked behind the chaos emeralds or forced side stories.

Agreed there. The half pipes are getting old now xD.

A return to the spinning pac.hinko mazes is what we need. The Advance 3 versions of the half pipes weren't bad except for how you unlocked them, but that's cheating a bit.

In 3D games, special stages could be done like the more outlandish secret or bonus levels in old FPS games and/or 3D platformers, along the lines of:

Escape from the Vomitorium from Rise of the Triad 2013

The Classic Maps from Doom 4 (in Sonic, it could be SA2 Green Hill style classic levels in 3D but with all acts and bosses)

The Ratacombs from DUSK

The "toy void" platforming special stages in Mario Sunshine, as well as similar ones in A Hat in Time & Mario Odyssey

Besides the other bonus and secret level suggestions for the fan made Sonic 2006 remake I suggested a couple of times before (as an example), it could also have "failure levels" as part of showing what happens if the bad guys win, like Marathon Infinity and the mod Marathon Eternal X, sort of like the Bad Futures from Sonic CD, but in 3D and as secret levels.

All Hallows & Nightmare in Vegas in Tomb Raider 3 and TR2's expansion pack respectively

The magic fountains in Prince of Persia Two Thrones and the sand portal bonus levels in its PSP & Wii remake

While this one technically doesn't count, the Pure time trial DLC maps in Mirror's Edge 1, basically Prince of Persia's magic fountains crossed with the Animus Core (or even Null Space if you want a Sonic parallel)

That's all the examples I can think of.

[Miraglyth]

I imagine when the plan was for Forces to be actually good, the Phanton Ruby was a very good idea.

If Forces had never existed, its inclusion as a macguffin in Mania would have probably been well-received as plausible enough to explain the warping to distant areas (both in the first half of the game's zone transitions and throughout Titanic Monarch's acts and bosses) without stealing the show. Kind of like the Time Eater in Generations.

Its use in Forces was what screwed everything up, not least of all because the explanation for how it worked and what it did were glaringly contradictory both with other games in the series (Classic Sonic now being from "another dimension") and within itself (if it just manipulates perception, how would it even bring someone from another dimension?) Not only that, but even where it came from - in different places during Forces it was implied to be found and created, with nothing to explain the existence of the prototypes in either version.

In short, the Phantom Ruby was a good idea, but Forces pulled a Forces and ruined it. Heck knows how they could even make a story in a follow-up game at this point because Forces has created several messes of the continuity. At least '06 had the decency to undo itself.

As for the chaos emeralds, I might be alone in thinking I'd quite like to see them be something that needs to be found during the course of the game, to unlock a true final boss shmup-style. This was how it worked in Mania (at least, as Sonic, and Encore Mode kind of screwed up on this one too) but in the 3D games I think the last time it's worked that way was Heroes? I wouldn't mind them being a part of the story prior to that too, but it'd make the most sense to have them be fought over during the course of the story, and I feel the last time that was done right was both games of the Adventure series (though 2 shortcut it a bit by having 3 of them in the same place).