Artificial Difficulty of Aletreon and Fatalis

[Little Sniping Rat]

You know, I get that they are supposed to be strong enemies and hard to beat...But that HP pool and the ability to easy 2-Shot a player with area sweeping attacks that he can chain together? Really Capcom? Really? Lazy, Unimaginative and boring really. Haven't seen you guys fuimble this hard since Dragon's Dogma smh

[Arius]

Автор сообщения: DoEFotGS

Автор сообщения: Salty

II do however appreciate the tips and ideas, rather than the "Git Gud" I got above. Good stuff Popcorn :er_heart:

So, maybe you need to start from asking for advice instead of whine for your own incompetence?

funny how i see no one telling him to "git gud" but he puts words into our throat,the assumption he can make is utterly terrifying,if telling and guiding are equivalent of telling people "git gud" i guess no one should use this forum

[Arius]

Автор сообщения: Salty

Lol, Wow, Monster Hunter players are more defensive of their game than even Doom Fanboys. Listen, I'm just voicing an opinion based of excessive gaming experience, The fights were just dull and cookie cutter, with inflated stat pools. I just expected more, something cool or a different mechanic except: Face smash, Slash head! RAAAAWWWWR! RUUUUN!!...Wall slam!!! etc etc...idk, this was my first Monster Hunter Game and tbh it had to be bought for me to even give it this much of a shot...that said, some stuff was fun, monster design was clever sometimes...I just dont get why the final bosses were...bleh. You know? Also...Fatalis was WAAAYYYy smaller than I expected lol

and people just telling u and guiding u that's it,if you can't take any forms of telling and guiding you shouldn't have making thread in the first place,no ones "above" you telling to git gud unless you have very twisted perception /comprehension.No one is being defensive it's just facts have to be stated period.

[Pyramid Head's Meat Socket]

Автор сообщения: Salty

You know, I get that they are supposed to be strong enemies and hard to beat...But that HP pool and the ability to easy 2-Shot a player with area sweeping attacks that he can chain together? Really Capcom? Really? Lazy, Unimaginative and boring really. Haven't seen you guys fuimble this hard since Dragon's Dogma smh

I can agree that with Alatreon having to try and meet a certain DPS check in a limited amount of time whole trying to run after them can be a bit unfun... but with Fatalis, you literally just have to learn the fight. Trust me when I say this, but eventually you become fluent at dodging attacks and knowing where to hit and when to hit him.

try and find some friends to help you through them both if it gets too tough, solo completions are after all impressive feats the community prides themselves on achieving when one person achieves it. Not impossible but no one cares if you get help, infact many people prefer to do it with multiple hunters, helps with the aggro.

[Popcorn]

Автор сообщения: Pyramid Head's Meat Socket

Автор сообщения: Salty

You know, I get that they are supposed to be strong enemies and hard to beat...But that HP pool and the ability to easy 2-Shot a player with area sweeping attacks that he can chain together? Really Capcom? Really? Lazy, Unimaginative and boring really. Haven't seen you guys fuimble this hard since Dragon's Dogma smh

I can agree that with Alatreon having to try and meet a certain DPS check in a limited amount of time whole trying to run after them can be a bit unfun... but with Fatalis, you literally just have to learn the fight. Trust me when I say this, but eventually you become fluent at dodging attacks and knowing where to hit and when to hit him.

try and find some friends to help you through them both if it gets too tough, solo completions are after all impressive feats the community prides themselves on achieving when one person achieves it. Not impossible but no one cares if you get help, infact many people prefer to do it with multiple hunters, helps with the aggro.

You forgot the most important thing about multiplayer: its hella fun

[ominumi]

The game is based on artificial difficulty from the get go. Low Rank? High Rank? Master Rank? You hunt the same exact monsters with higher stats over and over. Imagine playing Dark Souls. Each time you complete the game, a new mode pops up making the enemy hit harder and have more health. Does that make a game hard? No, of course not. It does make it so a player have less room for errors. And that's the deciding factor.

[Suzaku]

Автор сообщения: ominumi

The game is based on artificial difficulty from the get go. Low Rank? High Rank? Master Rank? You hunt the same exact monsters with higher stats over and over. Imagine playing Dark Souls. Each time you complete the game, a new mode pops up making the enemy hit harder and have more health. Does that make a game hard? No, of course not. It does make it so a player have less room for errors. And that's the deciding factor.

So you mean New Game+ and difficulty levels found in most other games?

That's called actual difficulty.

This is why I say:

Автор сообщения: Suzaku

"Artificial difficulty" is a nonsense term made by people that refuse to learn.

[Suzaku]

It's actual difficulty because of simply this:

• If the enemy's health was lowered, would the fight be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• If the enemy's damage was lowered, would the fight be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.

Same thing with tons of other "artificial difficulty" complaints I've seen across countless other games.

• "The boss have so many adds is artificial difficulty". If the boss had fewer adds, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "The enemy attacks so fast that it's artificial difficulty". If the enemy was slower, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "The enemy has too many attacks to remember that it's artificial difficulty". If the enemy had fewer attacks, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "There's too many resources to juggle that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "It's too dark that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "My guy can't carry enough potions that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "Enemies spot me and call backup so fast that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "There's too many threats to manage that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "My units don't move fast enough that it's artificial difficulty"
  
  The list can go on forever.

Make up whatever excuses you want. Make up whatever "solution" you like. All of it has been called "artificial difficulty" before. In the end, it's all just numbers being tweaked, and it's all actual difficulty because if you crank the numbers up, it becomes more difficult, and if you lower the numbers, it becomes less difficult.

If the challenge can be overcome through skill, knowledge, and preparation, then it's quite real.

Автор сообщения: Suzaku

"Artificial difficulty" is a nonsense term made by people that refuse to learn.

[Popcorn]

Автор сообщения: Suzaku

It's actual difficulty because of simply this:

• If the enemy's health was lowered, would the fight be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• If the enemy's damage was lowered, would the fight be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.

Same thing with tons of other "artificial difficulty" complaints I've seen across countless other games.

• "The boss have so many adds is artificial difficulty". If the boss had fewer adds, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "The enemy attacks so fast that it's artificial difficulty". If the enemy was slower, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "The enemy has too many attacks to remember that it's artificial difficulty". If the enemy had fewer attacks, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "There's too many resources to juggle that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "It's too dark that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "My guy can't carry enough potions that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "Enemies spot me and call backup so fast that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "There's too many threats to manage that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "My units don't move fast enough that it's artificial difficulty"
  
  The list can go on forever.

Make up whatever excuses you want. Make up whatever "solution" you like. All of it has been called "artificial difficulty" before. In the end, it's all just numbers being tweaked, and it's all actual difficulty because if you crank the numbers up, it becomes more difficult, and if you lower the numbers, it becomes less difficult.

If the challenge can be overcome through skill, knowledge, and preparation, then it's quite real.

Автор сообщения: Suzaku

"Artificial difficulty" is a nonsense term made by people that refuse to learn.

Nah, monsters should have only one HP, have one move, and shouldn't move around at all, that way, there no "artificial difficulty" at all.

Honestly though, if you go from how MH goes, it throws you off from start to finish.
Once you've adapted to the certain level of the monster, once you hit the next one, theres a new move added

[ominumi]

Автор сообщения: Suzaku

It's actual difficulty because of simply this:

• If the enemy's health was lowered, would the fight be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• If the enemy's damage was lowered, would the fight be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.

Same thing with tons of other "artificial difficulty" complaints I've seen across countless other games.

• "The boss have so many adds is artificial difficulty". If the boss had fewer adds, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "The enemy attacks so fast that it's artificial difficulty". If the enemy was slower, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "The enemy has too many attacks to remember that it's artificial difficulty". If the enemy had fewer attacks, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "There's too many resources to juggle that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "It's too dark that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "My guy can't carry enough potions that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "Enemies spot me and call backup so fast that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "There's too many threats to manage that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "My units don't move fast enough that it's artificial difficulty"
  
  The list can go on forever.

Make up whatever excuses you want. Make up whatever "solution" you like. All of it has been called "artificial difficulty" before. In the end, it's all just numbers being tweaked, and it's all actual difficulty because if you crank the numbers up, it becomes more difficult, and if you lower the numbers, it becomes less difficult.

If the challenge can be overcome through skill, knowledge, and preparation, then it's quite real.

Автор сообщения: Suzaku

"Artificial difficulty" is a nonsense term made by people that refuse to learn.

You are correct in saying "Artificial Difficulty" is a no nonsense term used by players who refuse to accept their own short coming. Then whose at fault though? The player who doesn't have the skillset to complete the objective? Or the developers who made the impossible task? I'm gonna point my finger at TC. He sure can't blame himself so who else is there to blame?
Take a game like "Jump King." A simple and easy game. The major downside is being punish severely for making mistakes. And there is plenty of opportunity for players to make mistakes. Is Monster Hunter like that?

[Suzaku]

Автор сообщения: ⎛⎝ Chillwind ⎠⎞

You're acting like there's no nuance here at all.
I mean yes, making things too dark could actually be a form of artifical difficulty.
That doesn't mean that every time a room is dark that it's artifical difficulty.

In this example, a complaint of "artificial difficulty" is usually accompanied by refusal to use available light sources, or refusal to acknowledge ones already existing. For example, a player refusing to use a torch because it would mean putting away a shield, or ignoring the fact that an enemy has lights on it, so you know where they are and what they're doing anyway, even if it is a bit hard to see.

If an enemy was completely unable to be seen due to extreme darkness, then the difficulty would be artificial as the player would be unable to do anything about it. However, since the user has the option to light up an area, or the opponent is already lit up by other means, then the difficulty is not artificial as the proposed challenge can be combated.

Автор сообщения: ⎛⎝ Chillwind ⎠⎞

And just because you can overcome something doesn't mean that it isn't artifically difficult.
There's a lot of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ things in games you can overcome it doesn't make it any less ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

Literally, yes it does. If the difficulty was artificial, nothing the user does would change the outcome. The simple fact that it can be overcome means it is not artificial.

A lot of what people consider "bull%$#@" are often handled with great ease. I've seen attacks from certain bosses called completely unfair, broken, OP, whatever you want, when the answer to the problem was as simple as stopping your attack and walking to the side for a couple seconds. It doesn't require MLG reflexes to hold a thumbstick to a side for a moment, yet some would claim such an action an unreasonable one to take, and would rather call the easily avoidable attack "artificial difficulty".

Автор сообщения: ⎛⎝ Chillwind ⎠⎞

I don't even think that you're interested in an actual discussion about it to begin with tho.
You can quote spam your own comment all that you want it doesn't make you right.

There are a lot of ridiculous things I could think of that would make a game more difficult, and you can be extremely pedantic about it if you want.
But I think it's pretty clear what most people mean when they say that something is artifically difficult.

I repeat my quote because it has always, and continues to be, truth.

The only thing that's clear when people use the term "artificial difficulty" is that they do not know what "artificial" or "difficulty" means. Words have definitions for a reason.

Автор сообщения: ⎛⎝ Chillwind ⎠⎞

In most cases I also don't think that an enemy just getting more health at a higher difficulty setting makes it more difficult, just more tedious.
Artifical difficulty is normally about things that doesn't really add anything to a fight other than trying to cheaply screw the player over in a lazy way.

If you want to say that bloated health and damage numbers are lazy game design, I agree wholeheartedly. I tend to avoid playing games on their hardest settings because the only difference between hard and hardest is usually some silly multiplier on their health and damage, making things tedious as you said.

But those things, tedious, lazy, and unimaginative as they are, are actual difficulty. Numbers go up; so does difficulty. Numbers go down; so does difficulty. As long as victory or defeat is entirely in the hands of the player, the difficulty is real.

[DoEFotGS]

Автор сообщения: ⎛⎝ Chillwind ⎠⎞

In most cases I also don't think that an enemy just getting more health at a higher difficulty setting makes it more difficult, just more tedious.
Artifical difficulty is normally about things that doesn't really add anything to a fight other than trying to cheaply screw the player over in a lazy way.

Bloated health and damage did at least one thing: rise cost of your mistakes.

On 'easy' you can tank 15 enemy hits while on 'ultimate' only 3? Well, it's time to learn game better and don't get hit often. Game has tools to help you? So use it, instead of just swing your sword mindlessly. Game has mechanics to control or zone enemies? Use it instead of just full invest into damage and crits.

I mean, even 'Hell and hell' in DMC can be beaten without getting hit, because game has all needed tools and mechanics for that.

Question is: do you want spend your time to deep dive into it, learn, adapt and overcome?

And about 'things that doesn't really add anything': rat in beginning that die in 3 hits with +0 weapon and rat from end game that die in 3 hits with +20 weapon.

[Popcorn]

Автор сообщения: ⎛⎝ Chillwind ⎠⎞

Автор сообщения: Suzaku

It's actual difficulty because of simply this:

• If the enemy's health was lowered, would the fight be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• If the enemy's damage was lowered, would the fight be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.

Same thing with tons of other "artificial difficulty" complaints I've seen across countless other games.

• "The boss have so many adds is artificial difficulty". If the boss had fewer adds, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "The enemy attacks so fast that it's artificial difficulty". If the enemy was slower, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "The enemy has too many attacks to remember that it's artificial difficulty". If the enemy had fewer attacks, would it be less difficult? Then that's actual difficulty.
  
• "There's too many resources to juggle that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "It's too dark that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "My guy can't carry enough potions that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "Enemies spot me and call backup so fast that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "There's too many threats to manage that it's artificial difficulty"
  
• "My units don't move fast enough that it's artificial difficulty"
  
  The list can go on forever.

Make up whatever excuses you want. Make up whatever "solution" you like. All of it has been called "artificial difficulty" before. In the end, it's all just numbers being tweaked, and it's all actual difficulty because if you crank the numbers up, it becomes more difficult, and if you lower the numbers, it becomes less difficult.

If the challenge can be overcome through skill, knowledge, and preparation, then it's quite real.

You're acting like there's no nuance here at all.
I mean yes, making things too dark could actually be a form of artifical difficulty.
That doesn't mean that every time a room is dark that it's artifical difficulty.

And just because you can overcome something doesn't mean that it isn't artifically difficult.
There's a lot of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ things in games you can overcome it doesn't make it any less ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

I don't even think that you're interested in an actual discussion about it to begin with tho.
You can quote spam your own comment all that you want it doesn't make you right.

There are a lot of ridiculous things I could think of that would make a game more difficult, and you can be extremely pedantic about it if you want.
But I think it's pretty clear what most people mean when they say that something is artifically difficult.

In most cases I also don't think that an enemy just getting more health at a higher difficulty setting makes it more difficult, just more tedious.
Artifical difficulty is normally about things that doesn't really add anything to a fight other than trying to cheaply screw the player over in a lazy way.

Tediousness is to check your sanity in fighting the same monster with close to the same moves but longer.
As many of us knows it, the longer you are in a hunt, the more agitated you become, the more likely you will lose focus and self destruct, be it timing out, fainting all three times or using up all your items.

[ominumi]

Автор сообщения: Popcorn

Автор сообщения: ⎛⎝ Chillwind ⎠⎞

You're acting like there's no nuance here at all.
I mean yes, making things too dark could actually be a form of artifical difficulty.
That doesn't mean that every time a room is dark that it's artifical difficulty.

And just because you can overcome something doesn't mean that it isn't artifically difficult.
There's a lot of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ things in games you can overcome it doesn't make it any less ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

I don't even think that you're interested in an actual discussion about it to begin with tho.
You can quote spam your own comment all that you want it doesn't make you right.

There are a lot of ridiculous things I could think of that would make a game more difficult, and you can be extremely pedantic about it if you want.
But I think it's pretty clear what most people mean when they say that something is artifically difficult.

In most cases I also don't think that an enemy just getting more health at a higher difficulty setting makes it more difficult, just more tedious.
Artifical difficulty is normally about things that doesn't really add anything to a fight other than trying to cheaply screw the player over in a lazy way.

Tediousness is to check your sanity in fighting the same monster with close to the same moves but longer.
As many of us knows it, the longer you are in a hunt, the more agitated you become, the more likely you will lose focus and self destruct, be it timing out, fainting all three times or using up all your items.

That highly depend on the person. I have fought AT Nerg countless times with Iron weapons for 50 minutes. Endurance versus sprint. Some people are just built different.

[cruste]

yeah hard until you figure out how to kill them quickly with hbg
what was the record for alatreon 3 min with pierce 3 spam, average joe may need 5 min
the crazy chads do even naked runs against or such foolish stuff like only mega barrels vs fatalis

[LazyGhost]

This is all very hilarious