Alatreon is the reason I'm going to uninstall

[AlbinoFrog]

Final edit: As of 9/13/24, a month and a half after I made this post, I have decided to throw in the towel yet again and just spent an hour gambling on SOS flares until someone beat him for me. I hope to never fight him again. F*ck Alatreon. F*ck his gimmicks. F*ck whoever tested it and thought it was good.

Original Post:
To preface, I'm not a good player. This is the first MH game I've played in more than a decade and I have no other experience with its combat style (I only play FGC, FPS, or puzzle games usually). Despite that, I have enjoyed MHW Icebourne very much over the last couple months and I played all the way up to Alatreon with manageable difficulty. My character is about 180 hours in, 65 MR, 90 HR. It has been a massive uphill battle to learn the game, but it has been enjoyable.

That is until I got to Alatreon. I have spent 3 consecutive days after work fighting the "weaker" version and after dozens of attempts I have only even seen Escaton Judgement once and it was my 3rd cart. I have yet to break a horn. Yes, I'm running elemental. Polar Bash, the Frostfang Barioth hammer. Yes, I'm running as many ice elemental damage up decos that I have. Yes, I have upgraded Vital Mantle and Dragonproof Mantle both with decos. Yes, I'm running enough elemental resistance decos that I have a positive resistance to fire, ice, lightning and dragon. Yes, I have upgraded my armor. I'm running a mix between the Stygian Zinogre and Furious Rajang set, all of which has been upgraded to level 13 or 10 respectively (they had different maxes).

After all boosts, armor charm/talon, and armor I have 970 defense. I have enough resources in the fight to functionally have 7 max potions, 20 mega potions, and extra lifepowders. I have no idea what else I can possible upgrade at this point and yet most of my attempts don't even make it 5 minutes in. And lastly yes, I have tried using SOS a few times. Every single attempt where I called for SOS we wiped at Escaton Judgement. This one monster has completely soured my enjoyment of this game because I'm realizing I will never be able to even unlock the final Elder Dragon, Fatalis.

[hotmatrixx]

My first kill on 'full' alatreon was with Dragon element; not ice.
I'm just dissppointed by how laclustre elemental feels in this game.

Fire doesn't cause then to catch on fire?
ice doesn't freeze/ slow them?
Dragon doesn't debuff their special attacks or create a damage window, prevent Enraged or anythign interesting?


I went wtih Sleep for my first play through, I used Jargris for most of the game, and hada great time wtih it. I hit Alatreon and 'had to' use dragon to beat his DPS check;

But in subsequent runs I realised I can just run my sleep build with a paralise-type Palico, I get 3 sleeps on him and one paralize - it's enough to kill him before his Judgement; except that it turns out that he's literally invincible (gets to 1hp and stays there) until after that attack. So; I just cart to that, come back, and breathe on him FTW.

[Mini]

Well if you want to give it a go, I’d recommend either Dual Blades, Switch Axe, or Charge Blade (personally I run Safi Charge Blades and the full Safi armor for this one).

It’s a tough but fair fight, you just need to put in the time to prepare for it. Running your average Longsword build ain’t gonna solve a damn thing here.

If Safi gear ain’t your thing, go for the Silver Rathalos armor for the true critical element. I’ve made it work but it’s tough.

Good Hunting!

[Mitzuriki]

GO FROSTCRAFT GO FROSTCRAFT GO FROSTCRAFT

[Black Captain]

I beat Rajang yesterday and unlocked his super saiyen version.

Was a lot easier with a faster weapon and git’n gud.

[DAVOS CENSORSHIP 2030 FTW!!!]

Fail 99 out of 100 but due to 3 Newbies expecting to be Carried XD.

Besides most of the Time is not even about not reaching the Elemental Dmg Threshold but them fainting.

Just make Frostcraft Builds People.

It's Endgame Monster just like Primordial Malzeno and Amatsu in Rise.

Primordial is a lot Worse, specially in the Smallest Map due to its 9000 Miles Hitboxes and Speed since Amatsu is a Gimmick Monster.

But you still have so much Cheap ♥♥♥♥ and Movement Skills over there that still makes it easier.

Honestly i hate all Gimmick Fights in both World and Rise.

[hotmatrixx]

Diposting pertama kali oleh 16 TIMES THE PAID MODS!!!:

Fail 99 out of 100 but due to 3 Newbies expecting to be Carried XD.

Besides most of the Time is not even about not reaching the Elemental Dmg Threshold but them fainting.

Just make Frostcraft Builds People.

It's Endgame Monster just like Primordial Malzeno and Amatsu in Rise.

Primordial is a lot Worse, specially in the Smallest Map due to its 9000 Miles Hitboxes and Speed since Amatsu is a Gimmick Monster.

But you still have so much Cheap ♥♥♥♥ and Movement Skills over there that still makes it easier.

Honestly i hate all Gimmick Fights in both World and Rise.

I don't see Alatreon as a gimmick fight, although I suppose the Judgement, in many ways, is.
I think it was an amazing fight that forced me to learn him and his counters; adjust many points in my build specifically ot deal with him; at first I didn't like that, but the fact that I had to put effort into him like that left me feeling like I wished every single fight had been like that.

[ErzPaladin]

Diposting pertama kali oleh FuyuNoSora:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Omnicide:

I'd rather elements had some sort of lateral move, more special interactions with monsters weak to it or even just blights, they wouldn't even have to be as strong as the blights we deal with, just something ya know? Give weapons that aren't crazy about elemental a reason to use them outside this one fight.

I don't understand how disrespectful the MH franchise treats elements. The first time I heard about elemental damage I was so excited, but then I noticed it just adds damage - how dull.

Monster Hunter in a way stems from Mega Man, a game from 1987, but even there (2D game from 20th century on 4:3 CRT televisions, no online), one could use elements better than in current MH games!

It would be great if monsters weak to certain elements were affected by blights, ice making them slower for instance and freezing them from time to time, like paralysis. Also some visual effects, a nice ice crust forming on the monsters skin...

Diposting pertama kali oleh DoEFotGS:

Elemental damage calculated differently and separately from raw.

-

Real blame in this system is hides behind 20 years of series history. Too much things to explain, too little to actual use outside of excel tables.

It is very confusing for sure!

Well, you can't compare a Jump'n Run aka Plattformer with Action Adventure- or Action-Games. Mega Man highly profits from the unlockable weapon-abilities - which Mega Man "steals" for progressing through the stages.
And yet... especially on the Boss-fights the weapon abilities work mostly like damage-expander, either.

--------------------------

However, elemental damage in MHW is in fact pretty weird:

in the early MH games you've never seen damage at all - which is why damage always felt like a black box. Capcom could always trick gamers like a game master in DnD.
Then... Capcom tried working on their transperency and implemented damage-counts. But still... they still don't show raw- and elemental- / stats-damage seperately.
Which isn't entirely true, cause... slime-explosion damage is already shown seperately. So... in fact... Capcom has the technology or skill to show raw- and elemental damage seperately, but............ they don't wanna. They still want to treat elemental- / stats-damage like a black box.

--------------------------

Same goes for party-damage:

you can see your own damage, and wall-ramming damage and boulder-crushing damage is shown on screen, but you don't see the weapon-damage of party-members... which is why ... it's harder to check, whether someone cheats or glitches.

And Capcom doesn't make it easy to check on how will each party member did on a mission.

It is also still unclear... how much HP monsters have. As example: Shuzaku claimed in a previous thread that Fatalis had up to 170k HP in a 4P-party and tried proving this by an external link. No offense.
But Capcom doesn't make it transparent by itself... and personally? I don't think that Fatalis has 170k HP in a 4P-party. If that would be the case, I'm not sure a 4P-party could defeat it within 15 mins. I've seen damge counts on YT from parties which defeated Fatalis with Dual Blades: the damage ranges from 20-60 damage on average.

Let's say... the dragonspear does 2x 8500 = 17k dmg. That would be 10% of Max HP. And let's further say... you wall-ram Fatalis 4 times -> 4 x 2300 = 9200 dmg. Then you can substract that from the Max-HP and the rest needs to be done via weapon-dmg.

1.) 170000 - 17000 - 9200 = 143800


Dividing 143800 : (60 x 4) = 599,2

...means... from a 4P-party full of DualBladers everyone would need to deal on minimum ca. 600 hits with ca. 60 dmg... each partymember... and with an average dmg of 60.
And from what I've seen... the damage ranges too much. Yes... some hits may even do 100 dmg. But a lot more hits range around 20-30 dmg.

Even with the GS I'm not sure... how I should do 143800 : 4 = ca. 36000 dmg just by dealing weapon dmg. In 15-20 mins! Cause most parties end around that time.

DPS for a 15 min-Run:

36000 : (15 x 60) = 40 dmg / s

DPS for a 20 min-Run:

36000 : (20 x 60) = 30 dmg / s

... every partymember would have to deal 30-40 dmg per second to accomplish this and that permanently. And that doesn't even include the downtimes where you can't do anything, cause Fatalis does AoE-Breaths.

[ErzPaladin]

Here's a picture from an Alatreon-hunt:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3301166438

enjoy...><

[Omnicide]

I mean nowadays we have data mining and tools that display actual hp amounts, I haven't used it myself though. I rather like the obscurity. Just like I like that my palico makes monsters less predictable. Tried a hunt without and it's just not the same game when you know that no matter what they will target you with the next move.

Makes the AI seem way less advanced. I want them to have fighting game ♥♥♥ AI, that would be fun. Where's my monster footsies? Would be a different game lol.

[ErzPaladin]

Well...

I'm still following the opinion that something is broken about Alatreon. I have no issues with breaking Alatreon Horns. I simply can't break them instantly.

As GS-User... without mantles and wall-ramming...
Normally I can only break the horn after Alatreon already switched elements. Except for 1 time, I guess, where I soloed Alatreon within 26-27 mins and still died twice by death-nukes. The Weakener"-food skill might've activated there, cause I had it twice - even on 2nd meal.

Then again... I don't get how LS users do it:

In almost every successful Alatreon-hunt of the last week there was always a high-level LS user involved and I still remember that one Alatreon-mission only took a bit more than 6 mins with such a LS user! And that guy was MR 999, I think.

Atm. I have two GS setups:

for Ice-Alatreon:

Kjarr GS (Rathalos) (*with special upgrades till Magdaros for slightly more element)

700 Fire
Crit Element
Base-Crit +30% (70% with Crit Eye, 100% with Latent Power lvl 3)

...and more or less the same armor skill setup except with Fire Boost lvl 4 now.

700 x 1,4 = 980 Fire (theor. on crit)

for Fire-Alatreon:

Kjarr GS (Ice) (*Magdaros upgrade or higher)

860 Ice
Crit Element
Base Crit +30% (70% with Crit Eye, 100% with Latent Power lvl 3)
Ice-Boost lvl 4

860 x 1,4 = 1204 Ice (theor. on crit)

[Kino]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ErzPaladin:

Well...
Atm. I have two GS setups:

for Ice-Alatreon:

Kjarr GS (Rathalos) (*with special upgrades till Magdaros for slightly more element)

700 Fire
Crit Element
Base-Crit +30% (70% with Crit Eye, 100% with Latent Power lvl 3)

...and more or less the same armor skill setup except with Fire Boost lvl 4 now.

700 x 1,4 = 980 Fire (theor. on crit)

for Fire-Alatreon:

Kjarr GS (Ice) (*Magdaros upgrade or higher)

860 Ice
Crit Element
Base Crit +30% (70% with Crit Eye, 100% with Latent Power lvl 3)
Ice-Boost lvl 4

860 x 1,4 = 1204 Ice (theor. on crit)

The number resources are out there, and I've personally pointed you to one before. This sad attempt at MHW math gets an F from me.

[FuyuNoSora]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ErzPaladin:

Well, you can't compare a Jump'n Run aka Plattformer with Action Adventure- or Action-Games. Mega Man highly profits from the unlockable weapon-abilities - which Mega Man "steals" for progressing through the stages.
And yet... especially on the Boss-fights the weapon abilities work mostly like damage-expander, either.

Mega Man 2 favoured a raw weapon, namely the "metal blade", it seems this trend is still going on with MH.

It is also still unclear... how much HP monsters have. As example: Shuzaku claimed in a previous thread that Fatalis had up to 170k HP in a 4P-party and tried proving this by an external link. No offense.
But Capcom doesn't make it transparent by itself... and personally? I don't think that Fatalis has 170k HP in a 4P-party.

Everyone is stating, that Fatalis has 170.000, or 174.000 HP. While I don't support cheating, the only picture with a hunter pie mod that I could find is this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MonsterHunterWorld/comments/18w14zv/i_did_it_solo_fatalis_on_4man_hp_scaling/#lightbox

It shows that the player did 130.000 damage to Fatalis, whatever that means in the end. I'm anti-mods, but maybe you can gain more insight with this picture.

We have a research commission it's a shame that they can't give you the number of the HP of a monster after you killed it.

More transparency would lead to a better gaming experience. Hiding things just leads to confused players. It's best to make a puzzle with enough hints for a player to solve. This was aknowledged by the creator of Zelda Majoras Mask for the N64, who got many complaints of players who simply got lost at some point and lost interest.

[cruste]

Diposting pertama kali oleh FuyuNoSora:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Omnicide:

I'd rather elements had some sort of lateral move, more special interactions with monsters weak to it or even just blights, they wouldn't even have to be as strong as the blights we deal with, just something ya know? Give weapons that aren't crazy about elemental a reason to use them outside this one fight.

I don't understand how disrespectful the MH franchise treats elements. The first time I heard about elemental damage I was so excited, but then I noticed it just adds damage - how dull.

Monster Hunter in a way stems from Mega Man, a game from 1987, but even there (2D game from 20th century on 4:3 CRT televisions, no online), one could use elements better than in current MH games!

It would be great if monsters weak to certain elements were affected by blights, ice making them slower for instance and freezing them from time to time, like paralysis. Also some visual effects, a nice ice crust forming on the monsters skin...

Diposting pertama kali oleh DoEFotGS:

Elemental damage calculated differently and separately from raw.

-

Real blame in this system is hides behind 20 years of series history. Too much things to explain, too little to actual use outside of excel tables.

It is very confusing for sure!

Have you played another game than me?
you can use water weapons to remove mud or slime of certain monsters like brachy or the fish and Barroth. meanwhile you can use fireweapons to weaken the lava armor of lavasioth while water weapons have the opposite effect

you can remove certain puddles from monsters like lunastra or namielle through certain slinger ammo

it also always depends on the hardware.
one example are kelbi horns in older title was simply obtained as random object during the carving process, while you could finally obtain it in mhw through blunt dmg to the head and it dropped as shiny

good old volumetric snow in mhw vs bad snow in rise because switch has such poor hardware

if we are lucky we might see cool effects in the future like fur get burned through fireweapon usage or new fancy trap combos like oil barrels + fire

[DoEFotGS]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ErzPaladin:

Then... Capcom tried working on their transperency and implemented damage-counts. But still... they still don't show raw- and elemental- / stats-damage seperately.

Status values on weapons show not damage, but build up - how much hidden bar fill if build up proc (1/3 probability for melee weapons per hit). This values not used in any damage calculation, so nothing to separate.

Diposting pertama kali oleh ErzPaladin:

Which isn't entirely true, cause... slime-explosion damage is already shown seperately. So... in fact... Capcom has the technology or skill to show raw- and elemental damage seperately, but............ they don't wanna. They still want to treat elemental- / stats-damage like a black box.

You see damage of status effect trigger. Blast and poison is a damaging ailments, while sleep and paralize is not.

As you mentioned, game has sources of damage that show for everyone in the hunt. Blast and poison damage is one of them and this damage numbers do nothing with any damage calculations tied to interraction between hunter weapon and monster part. For status build up is not matter where your hit was landed - matter only fact of build up proc and monster current resist (hidden bar lenght).

Diposting pertama kali oleh ErzPaladin:

Let's say... the dragonspear does 2x 8500 = 17k dmg. That would be 10% of Max HP. And let's further say... you wall-ram Fatalis 4 times -> 4 x 2300 = 9200 dmg. Then you can substract that from the Max-HP and the rest needs to be done via weapon-dmg.

Dragonator is source of fixed damage and it fixed at 5% of monster's max HP per spike. Both spikes is 10% total. You can increase it to 15% via sleep, but only one of two spikes recieve x2 wake up bonus - that's why 15% instead of 20%.

You can use this knowledge to assume full party Fatalis health and be accurate with it with no info from external sources or overlays.

Diposting pertama kali oleh ErzPaladin:

... every partymember would have to deal 30-40 dmg per second to accomplish this and that permanently. And that doesn't even include the downtimes where you can't do anything, cause Fatalis does AoE-Breaths.

30-40 dps is pretty low for experienced players.
Floor is 50+ while ceiling, for best players, is around 100.
I'm sure for WR speedruns this numbers is higher, but I don't dive much into speedruns.

Diposting pertama kali oleh ErzPaladin:

I'm still following the opinion that something is broken about Alatreon. I have no issues with breaking Alatreon Horns. I simply can't break them instantly.

Because you can break horns ONLY during dragon state.

Diposting pertama kali oleh ErzPaladin:

Kjarr GS (Rathalos) (*with special upgrades till Magdaros for slightly more element)

700 Fire
Crit Element
Base-Crit +30% (70% with Crit Eye, 100% with Latent Power lvl 3)
...
Kjarr GS (Ice) (*Magdaros upgrade or higher)

860 Ice
Crit Element
Base Crit +30% (70% with Crit Eye, 100% with Latent Power lvl 3)
Ice-Boost lvl 4

860 x 1,4 = 1204 Ice (theor. on crit)

Bloated multiplier for elemental damage and status build up is 10. Your 700 fire is actually 70 fire per hit without any other modifiers.

70 * 1.15 (white sharpness) * 1.8 (powered true charge slash) * 1.4 (CE for GS) = 202.86
If you hit Alatreon arms (front legs) with 22 fire HZV in ice state it result 44.62 (not sure how it rounded) elemental damage.
If you hit Alatreon head with 14 fire HZV in ice state it result 28.4 elemental damage.

Is how HZV and damage calculation works.

Also, for supression Escaton Judgement, game has unique elemental modifier for each weapon which is not participate in calculation of actual damage to kill Alatreon. For GS is 1.1, IIRC.

P.S.: Felyne Weakener do not work on Alatreon, Fatalis and KT. Maybe this list contain even more monsters.

[Anoyun?]

we'll miss you. good bye and god bless