Rise and The Older Titles Difficulty.

[Thomas Chester]

I really really REALLY am regretting posting a topic like this because there will probably be a war down in the comment section or whatever.

World is fairly a little easier than older titles but Rise I think took it more with both gathering and combat for 70% of the Monsters, not all Monsters are easy, some of'em can get you really badly, but compared to World, World has more challenge to offer than Rise but they still fall to the same trap, not being deliberate enough like older titles.

I would like to know your opinion in that topic as it's one of the weirdest and surely one of the more controversial topics, I think both games are good in their own rights (Ahem, I still prefer World for the exploration and combat aspect) and could be improved in the next title as I think that it will be made by the same team who made World. Hopefully they do a mix between World QoL improvements with few new elements that works with the favor of a more deliberate old school Monster Hunter game. I would love to see a mix between the two.

[Malthar]

if youre afraid of people arguing in the thread, just delete it

[Thomas Chester]

Originally posted by Malthar:

if youre afraid of people arguing in the thread, just delete it

I will take the dust. But thanks for the warning.

[overmage]

The same people who complained that World was too easy would say that Fatalis or Alatreon were "artificial difficulty" forgetting that the monsters harder than them like Hyper Silver Rathalos were literally deriving their difficulty from one-shots and jank. Not saying you, but if World was so easy, how come so many self-proclaimed vets got so mad when they couldn't beat the hyperbosses? Seems to me that if this was the real issue then they would be beating the black dragons first try. Again not saying you but this is what I've observed. Base world might have been a touch easier, true, but Iceborne definitely brought the series back in line with, and in the case of the final few bosses, above in many cases. If you don't agree, well, did you beat the black dragons in your first 3 tries?

Now Rise is a different story. Definitely a little bit on the easy side, even comparing base world to base rise.

[Thomas Chester]

Originally posted by overmage:

The same people who complained that World was too easy would say that Fatalis or Alatreon were "artificial difficulty" forgetting that the monsters harder than them like Hyper Silver Rathalos were literally deriving their difficulty from one-shots and jank. Not saying you, but if World was so easy, how come so many self-proclaimed vets got so mad when they couldn't beat the hyperbosses? Seems to me that if this was the real issue then they would be beating the black dragons first try. Again not saying you but this is what I've observed.

The observation of what I said or what you saw before? Eh? I personally don't think World is easy than older titles late game but I do think World is just slightly easier which matters not really and what you said is pretty much right. Fatalis and Alatreon aren't artificially difficult, more like people are dying from Fatalis's fire breath or Alatreon's slap or electricity.

I think design wise, World did change few fundamentals design core in the series which I really am loving it but I would love an old school with new changes and overhaul that makes the game more difficult but not in a frustrating way with a mix of World QoL improvements and foundation as I think it is very excellent. World is still hard but with Rise, it still has challenge but I don't see it as challenging as past titles for its extreme changes that it did than World.

But I do agree with everything you said. Everything.

[Shadow Wizard Fluffy Gang]

Although I don't feel very "veteran" in terms of the franchise, I can speak from my limited experience.

I started on Monster Hunter 3 Tri, a gutted Wii port but it was exciting for my first entry. Figure I can only go up from there. I then picked back up when World was released on consoles, and continued playing on PC later. I recently played Rise.

To give my input on OPs question:

I have played a limited amount of Rise, I slaughtered the "big boss" which was the purple (bear?) thing that shot purple fire from its tail on the first go. Treated it like any ordinary Monster. If this thing was supposed to fulfill the role that the Anjanath had when I played World, I found it underwhelming. Anjanath carted me several times before I began to learn how to play. Purple Bear was nothing to be concerned over.

I've found every fight in Rise so far to be like this, I don't end up utilizing the wallrunning, helpers, or any extra support/strategy for the fights, I just run in there and take them out. In World, though the slingshot and clutch claw are controversial, I do find myself using them frequently to win the fight. Although I'm not a fan of the cRutch claw as you are somewhat forced into using it, there are some fun moments like wallbangs or knocking a fleeing monster from the sky. Wirebugs are....fun I guess. I don't dislike them, but I wouldn't miss them.

So, to put it simply, I find World, and especially it's Iceborne expansion to be consistently harder than Rise. I've only carted twice in Rise, which was when I didn't understand Wirefall. After that, it's been cruising. World forced me to adapt and learn how to deal with a variety of monsters.

[Thomas Chester]

Originally posted by Mystik Muzik:

Although I don't feel very "veteran" in terms of the franchise, I can speak from my limited experience.

I started on Monster Hunter 3 Tri, a gutted Wii port but it was exciting for my first entry. Figure I can only go up from there. I then picked back up when World was released on consoles, and continued playing on PC later. I recently played Rise.

To give my input on OPs question:

I have played a limited amount of Rise, I slaughtered the "big boss" which was the purple (bear?) thing that shot purple fire from its tail on the first go. Treated it like any ordinary Monster. If this thing was supposed to fulfill the role that the Anjanath had when I played World, I found it underwhelming. Anjanath carted me several times before I began to learn how to play. Purple Bear was nothing to be concerned over.

I've found every fight in Rise so far to be like this, I don't end up utilizing the wallrunning, helpers, or any extra support/strategy for the fights, I just run in there and take them out. In World, though the slingshot and clutch claw are controversial, I do find myself using them frequently to win the fight. Although I'm not a fan of the cRutch claw as you are somewhat forced into using it, there are some fun moments like wallbangs or knocking a fleeing monster from the sky. Wirebugs are....fun I guess. I don't dislike them, but I wouldn't miss them.

So, to put it simply, I find World, and especially it's Iceborne expansion to be consistently harder than Rise. I've only carted twice in Rise, which was when I didn't understand Wirefall. After that, it's been cruising. World forced me to adapt and learn how to deal with a variety of monsters.

Ah, I heard this opinion (God darn it! I stole a golden in third in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe while I was writing this and lost it due to shock happening) a ton honestly and you're not the only one here, me included. I also don't consider myself as a Veteran but I think anyone has a valuable opinion on this subject. I only played Monster Hunter World/Iceborne, Monster Hunter Rise and just starting out GU and 3U. GU gives me a lot of trouble at the start, and Monsters really made me think a million times before I attack and Cephadrome was my first wall, Tetsucabra? Not so much but it was very tough.

I think the Monster that looks like a bear either called Azuros, Goss Harag, Magnamalo or Ibushi, not exactly sure as I didn't play Rise for quite a bit so forgive if I couldn't remember. Magnamalo for me was kinda challenging but was meh, it was great at first but once you fight it more, it doesn't become much enjoyable after you fight it more unlike other flagship monsters and honestly, it's not that meaningful. But I have to say, the fight is really enjoyable the first time.

I also have the same problem, as the game wasn't much challenging except after the story, Narwa was great but eh, it wasn't as impactful as Xeno'jiiva. Even then, Rise has a worse endgame than World, as armorpieces are just pretty useless and you would only stick with one or two build for the rest of the game.

You have to consider also that Rise's design philosophy is very different of that of older games and even than World, since World is much more closer to past entries than Rise. Rise's took the series into another whole direction for it being more fast paced, much more forgiving, not deliberate enough as older games and the gathering is nonexistent, there is still elements there but it just became quite useless compared to older titles.

The challenge I got from the game is Crimson Valstrax and some of the Apex challenges, especially Zinogre.

So yeah, what you said is pretty true since the game design is for a more casual audience which I quite dislike. The slow movement, the gathering (Which I will write on how to improve it in the next title without it being fast in my next suggestion so look out for that one if you're interested) the environment and how people came together in the first place, That's what made Monster Hunter especially, not a fast paced action game, might just call it Monster Fighter I would argue than a Hunter game (Which I will also cover on my next suggestion under "Your wishes on MH6" on how to balance the action aspect and the hunting aspect of the game and keeping the difficulty of it) or making it a hack and slash type of game. I'm not saying Rise is that, but Rise is close to that type of game. What also made past games special is the build up between the Monster your preparing for, especially flagship monsters and 4U done it best with Gore Magala. With Rise, as you described, you just go on your day and hunt it. I do not think it's the whole syndrome of "No, you just played Monster hunter World or past games, so it will get easier with the next one" Like, no, that's not the case. Coming from World and playing GU for the first time, no, I do not think that's the case. Rise's design philosophy is the one involved.

To summarize, yes, your claim is pretty accurate to mine, and I think it is reasonable for Capcom to do that, it brings them money, and if that means more, I fear it will get more action packed losing the immersive aspect and what made Monster Hunter special in the first place, which makes me think it won't be the best option for the long run in my opinion but I will get into that with my long post on why Rise's design doesn't work in the long run. Rise is an arcady like game and it has the right for it, but in my opinion, I don't like where the series heading if they streamline everything making it just you and the Monster with no build up or something to make the World or the Monsters special.

[Dagný]

We're having this discussion in the "wirefall" thread, because wirefall is the main culprit.

[Thomas Chester]

Originally posted by Dahlia Hawthorne:

We're having this discussion in the "wirefall" thread, because wirefall is the main culprit.

Wait, in the Rise discussion forum? Eh, I don't want to be there, it's kinda toxic honestly since it's more crowded but I respect the people there who wants the series to head that way, but for me, I do not like that direction. Like the combat is fun, but it's not impactful nor I will miss anything Rise offered really except the QoL Rathalos, Jyuratodus and Kushala Daora for example received and few other things like Switch Skills. Rise did good things but they aren't as impactful as World.

As for the Wirefall, I would argue that it is one in many problems the game has, a lot of Monsters are just easy to get around without it since they do not have that much speed to go against you, basically running circles around them, some weapons can attack really fast but not all weapons and 70% need some change to be compatible with the speed really. Balancing is not easy nor it should be. I also won't forget gathering as it is an important aspect for you to get the hype or some form of build up. Rise also more reckless except for some Monsters endgame but I would be foolish to ignore Rocksteady and Temporal Mantles.

I'm kinda interested to see what you guys will say about the wirefall but I think I will stick with World's forum. I maybe jump in the Rise discussions but I highly doubt I would.

Thanks for the heads up, I might just read through it but won't say much as I respect those people's opinion.

Edit: Sorry writing essays and paragraphs but I just can't stop my hands from typing.

[Dagný]

Originally posted by Thomas Chester:

I'm kinda interested to see what you guys will say about the wirefall but I think I will stick with World's forum. I maybe jump in the Rise discussions but I highly doubt I would.

Well, you have to start by asking yourself what makes a game difficult. To me it means me dying, not beating a monster in 36 min or 4 min, that comes with practice. But IF I die the game is difficult, the monster is difficult, end of story.

Now, what killed me the most in every single monster hunter I played before Rise? The answer is the interval between getting hit and healing, that is a crucial part of all Monster Hunter games because you have to get up, dodge incoming attacks with low HP, manually sheath (some weapons have a long sheathing animation), scroll through your items and finally heal, the old games even had that annoying flex animation inviting the monster to hit you again and you had to do the whole process again.

Other causes of death are being unable to move (like stun or for ex alatreon stomp attack) where you quickly get hit again or one-shots.

This is a very basic and important game mechanic that people with hundreds and maybe thousands of hours playing the series do not understand over there at Rise's forum and it seriously puzzles me.

What happens when you can use wirefall, cover a huge distance, instantly sheath your weapon no matter what weapon type you're using and start healing right away? You can probably guess what.

All those deaths that happened when Alatreon put you to the ground and do a follow up attack? they don't happen in Rise if you have a wirebug. A lot of monster have that type of attack.

[Corrupt-nz]

From some one who comes from older titles, world and rise are far more easier. With rise being the easiest and the main reason is coz of the player getting more moves/counter attacks.
...And every weapon now has the insect glaive affect to it.

[MarcoPants]

Originally posted by Corrupt-nz:

From some one who comes from older titles, world and rise are far more easier. With rise being the easiest and the main reason is coz of the player getting more moves/counter attacks.
...And every weapon now has the insect glaive affect to it.

I get this feeling having started playing Monster Hunter over in 3U. Haven't touched Rise tho, but from what I've seen, there's so little actual risk to the hunter through the existence of wirebug shenanigans. I'd say World is easier more through QoL changes like moving and healing/using items, CC wallbangs, various useful types of slinger ammo, not having to paintball monsters/scoutflies, indestructible pickaxe, and new moves for the weapons that both are good and manage to not also completely destroy the hunting experience (to name a number of things)

Even with the tons of changes to the game, the monsters, and the hunters themselves, I'd still say that MH:W manages to keep more of that deliberate combat feel of the older games than Rise

[샤넬]

people tend to compare MHR between Iceborne when it comes to the 'difficulty'.
Remember, original MHW was hella ez. temporal mantle before nerfed on Iceborne was a godlike and nobody needed to learn monster moves.

[Thomas Chester]

Originally posted by Dahlia Hawthorne:

Originally posted by Thomas Chester:

I'm kinda interested to see what you guys will say about the wirefall but I think I will stick with World's forum. I maybe jump in the Rise discussions but I highly doubt I would.

Well, you have to start by asking yourself what makes a game difficult. To me it means me dying, not beating a monster in 36 min or 4 min, that comes with practice. But IF I die the game is difficult, the monster is difficult, end of story.

Now, what killed me the most in every single monster hunter I played before Rise? The answer is the interval between getting hit and healing, that is a crucial part of all Monster Hunter games because you have to get up, dodge incoming attacks with low HP, manually sheath (some weapons have a long sheathing animation), scroll through your items and finally heal, the old games even had that annoying flex animation inviting the monster to hit you again and you had to do the whole process again.

Other causes of death are being unable to move (like stun or for ex alatreon stomp attack) where you quickly get hit again or one-shots.

This is a very basic and important game mechanic that people with hundreds and maybe thousands of hours playing the series do not understand over there at Rise's forum and it seriously puzzles me.

What happens when you can use wirefall, cover a huge distance, instantly sheath your weapon no matter what weapon type you're using and start healing right away? You can probably guess what.

All those deaths that happened when Alatreon put you to the ground and do a follow up attack? they don't happen in Rise if you have a wirebug. A lot of monster have that type of attack.

Pretty much agreed with everything. For me, what makes a game difficult is how challenging to overcome something, death is not the only factor for me for making a game hard but what you said is pretty true in the combat side of things.

I honestly think that I compared Rise to older games a bit too much but this is what monster hunter standards are and you are right at that as I focused on gathering with Rise, it's easy and not much of a joy to do compared to World or older titles. I would love them go back to the old days with MH World level design and to some degree, the gathering part since gathering needs an overhaul in my opinion as well as many other systems like Elemental Resistance and Weapons, Bowgun mods and etc.

[Thomas Chester]

Originally posted by 멜라토닌:

people tend to compare MHR between Iceborne when it comes to the 'difficulty'.
Remember, original MHW was hella ez. temporal mantle before nerfed on Iceborne was a godlike and nobody needed to learn monster moves.

I mean, honestly, base World is still challenging than base Rise, can be easy? Yes but not most of the time. I would say 40% to 50% is quite easy. Rise is 70% for me at least.

[MarcoPants]

Originally posted by Thomas Chester:

Pretty much agreed with everything. For me, what makes a game difficult is how challenging to overcome something, death is not the only factor for me for making a game hard but what you said is pretty true in the combat side of things.

I honestly think that I compared Rise to older games a bit too much but this is what monster hunter standards are and you are right at that as I focused on gathering with Rise, it's easy and not much of a joy to do compared to World or older titles. I would love them go back to the old days with MH World level design and to some degree, the gathering part since gathering needs an overhaul in my opinion as well as many other systems like Elemental Resistance and Weapons, Bowgun mods and etc.

Can definitely agree with the gathering point you make from what I've seen and heard. I'd personally rather they keep gathering more along the line of World's, mainly the no more 'your pickaxe has broken'