Why is damage so silly?

[Sparky]

So I'll preface this by saying that I love this game and am nearly 100 hours in, however.

On your equipment screen the damage shown is a straight up lie, it's inflated with multipliers and all kinds of things that don't actually reflect your damage very accurately (for example, 700 raw damage may get inflated to 711 with a +3 attack gem because the multipliers are weird, but won't actually do an extra 11 damage.)

On top of that, the way damage is calculated once you hit something is like 5 or 7 different multiplications that end up being silly and give you a pathetic number.

This is all so silly and pointless.There's no reason to have like, half the steps they have here. Even then, if they're going to artificially inflate the number on the inventory screen, why not do it to the hit numbers as well so it feels more impactfull, instead of sad when your "600" combined damage weapon hits for like, 30?

It's just so convoluted and inconsistent for no reason.

[Fraktal]

Originally posted by RedViper:

Originally posted by Sparky:

Which is really silly game design

Do you even know what game design is? Who am I kidding of course you don't.


That would be player interface design because it's the information that the game conveys to the player.

And any rpg will do that, daggers will always have low damage compared to a two handed axe, but are they useless? With the right class and build they can be. I guess no one knows how to design games.

He probably means its silly game design to show #s that way.

[Nixpayn]

I mean agnostic of the damage numbers you still have to hit it so many times that by the end it should look like a shawarma spit, like honestly you hit something with an axe or greatsword 10 times it's not gonna be running away, let alone 100-200 times and it's still kicking.

[Sparky]

Originally posted by RedViper:

Originally posted by Sparky:

Which is really silly game design

Do you even know what game design is? Who am I kidding of course you don't.


That would be player interface design because it's the information that the game conveys to the player.

And any rpg will do that, daggers will always have low damage compared to a two handed axe, but are they useless? With the right class and build they can be. I guess no one knows how to design games.

What I know about game design comes from the people who made DOOM Eternal, The Witcher 3, and the Extra Credits youtube channel, all of which have talked extensively on this topic.

In general there are three main things to consider when designing anything in a game.

1. Its purpose should be extremely clear to the players.
2. It should try to add something productive to the experience.
3. It should be mechanically simple to use but allow for high-level play when used extremely well, allowing for a learning curve.

The way damage is done in this game fails or partially fails on all three aspects in one way or another.

For starters the purpose of 700 damage and 30 actual damage is not extremely clear. Even looking into the (up to) eleven layers of math going into it, 700is a meaningless number beyond "it bigger than 500". It has no actual bearing on the damage output of the weapon.

A perfect example of this:
"2 rarity 11 weapons, a 1248 greatsword versus 392 dual blades, which one does the most damage?
It is the dual swords (gs has 260 raw, db has 280 raw) but there's no way to tell in game."

There is a reason most games will show you damage per hit and damage per second, because it makes sense.

Second, this system adds nothing productive to the experience. Some of the (up to) 11 damage modifies stay the same at all time for the specific weapon meaning you could just remove some of that math and add it to the base damage on a weapon to weapon basis. Even then, calulating damage in this way just leads to new players feeling bummed out when the awesome 400 damage weapon hits for 20. This system is nothing but detractive and misleading.

Third, this way of calculating damage is not simple, not intuitive, and does not allow for higher level plays that aren't already possible thanks to completely different systems (like the movement system which is fantastic).

I understand you don't agree with me, but getting hostile and saying I don't know anything is not the way to go about this in a productive way. This game is AWESOME, don't get me wrong. If I didn't like it I wouldn't have 100 hours in it. But it has flaws, and this is one of them.

This damage system is silly.

[Sparky]

Originally posted by The Orange and Blue Ninja:

Originally posted by RedViper:

Do you even know what game design is? Who am I kidding of course you don't.


That would be player interface design because it's the information that the game conveys to the player.

And any rpg will do that, daggers will always have low damage compared to a two handed axe, but are they useless? With the right class and build they can be. I guess no one knows how to design games.

He probably means its silly game design to show #s that way.

Bingo

[SSJPrince]

I mean I guess you just don't like the numbers and I don't plan to argue your opinion over it. But I have never had a problem figuring out how damage works after playing the game long enough. Raw damage on the weapon isn't even important if you're playing naked with an Alpha Bone set. I'm not claiming anything about your gear, this is a general statement which is pretty obvious but even if you have the best weapon in this game you still aren't dishing out much damage without proper build and Element.

Raw damage isn't going to vary that much, and even in your example with a GS and DB where the DB has more dps, the difference is minor when you take in the fact that monsters won't lay down and let you attack them, having 40-100 more dps isn't going to be a deal breaker. The GS in my experience is much more reliable for breaking monster parts for chain cc / knockdowns... Having the idea that a GS may be down 40 points of raw power is misleading in the actual power of the weapon, especially since GS slashes will be dealing hundreds to a thousand points in damage per swing and I'm not even sure if that accounts for the damage it gets from fully charged slashes.

vvvvvv

TL;DR: the obsession over damage is pointless. This isn't WoW where you click on something and the guy with higher dps wins, in this game your skill matters more, placing attacks precisely and what not. Virgin DB with slightly higher dps but unable to slow a monsters' movements vs the Chad GS part breaking God seamlessly chaining hundreds of damage eating 10-20% hp in mere seconds.

[Poothoottoot]

Originally posted by Sparky:

Originally posted by The Orange and Blue Ninja:

He probably means its silly game design to show #s that way.

Bingo

I agree that they should show raw instead of the bloated values, but the bloated values are that way so that people can tell at a glance that the GS will normally do more damage per hit than a similar pair of dual blades, I get why they do it and put up with it really since it's not too hard to look up the modifiers if I really want to get into nitty gritty damage calcs.

But yeah I'm on the "show raw damage" train like it was in P3rd and Generations.

[Sparky]

Originally posted by Poothoottoot:

Originally posted by Sparky:

Bingo

I agree that they should show raw instead of the bloated values, but the bloated values are that way so that people can tell at a glance that the GS will normally do more damage per hit than a similar pair of dual blades, I get why they do it and put up with it really since it's not too hard to look up the modifiers if I really want to get into nitty gritty damage calcs.

But yeah I'm on the "show raw damage" train like it was in P3rd and Generations.

I think it'd be so much easier to just show damage per hit and attack speed.

[雪奈]

No its not silly , the inflated values show the damage AFTER consider the motion value of the weapon .

GS draw slash have 48 motion value , aka 48% weapon damage , aka 0,48 raw value .
Longsword draw slash have 25 motion value , aka 25% weapon damage , aka 0,25 raw value .


And the GS have 4.8 raw multipliers , LS have 3.3 raw multipliers . Why LS have more raw multipliers than motion value you might ask ? Because the LS have 1.2(20%) damage bonus at Red Spirit bar .


Because of how complex the weapon mechanic in Monster Hunter , its not 100% accurate but it does it job at telling you how much different damage-per-hit of each type of weapon .

[Crusader]

So I just read the whole topic and got brain cancer.

>b-but witcher 3 or doom eternal does the numbers better

this game and witcher 3 or doom eternal have nothing in common

>b-but everything should be clearly explained to players

Good luck explaining the math behind motion values and hitzone values to 99% of the people who play this game when they can’t even add / subtract / multiply / divide. And if you want remove those concepts then you have to come up with another system involving weak points and damage / attack speed and there really isn’t one. No matter if you kept the true raw values in the game, you would still end up with the same problem and actually more problems because people would just say gs < db because oh this x db does 240 raw this gs does the same therefore db > gs which is not true as i said in my post. You really can’t give a “dps” value because not every body part takes the same damage isn’t ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ borderlands. So you have to give some arbitrary damage number that is bloated so that people can compare weapons. A dps value would still be inaccurate UNLESS if you completely want to remove weakspots which completely defeats the purpose of positioning which is one of the most combat mechanics in this game. And if that’s fine then go back to playing zoom eternal and cd projekt i can’t finish cyberpunk lmao

[RedViper]

I honestly gave up when this guy wanted the daggers of all games to have the exact same number as a two handed axe.

If they put the dps, there are going to be even more discussions about which weapon is the best when that is not what the developers want with this game. They are all great, they are all "the best" if you know how to use them, just play the game and enjoy it, instead of complaining on how the math doesn't make any sense like you are trying to calculate the damage of each attach yourself with an abacus.

[Dex]

Originally posted by 雪奈:

No its not silly , the inflated values show the damage AFTER consider the motion value of the weapon .

GS draw slash have 48 motion value , aka 48% weapon damage , aka 0,48 raw value .
Longsword draw slash have 25 motion value , aka 25% weapon damage , aka 0,25 raw value .


And the GS have 4.8 raw multipliers , LS have 3.3 raw multipliers . Why LS have more raw multipliers than motion value you might ask ? Because the LS have 1.2(20%) damage bonus at Red Spirit bar .


Because of how complex the weapon mechanic in Monster Hunter , its not 100% accurate but it does it job at telling you how much different damage-per-hit of each type of weapon .

See OP? Simple!

/s

[Sparky]

Originally posted by >mfw alatreon gets delayed:

So I just read the whole topic and got brain cancer.

>b-but witcher 3 or doom eternal does the numbers better

this game and witcher 3 or doom eternal have nothing in common

>b-but everything should be clearly explained to players

Good luck explaining the math behind motion values and hitzone values to 99% of the people who play this game when they can’t even add / subtract / multiply / divide. And if you want remove those concepts then you have to come up with another system involving weak points and damage / attack speed and there really isn’t one. No matter if you kept the true raw values in the game, you would still end up with the same problem and actually more problems because people would just say gs < db because oh this x db does 240 raw this gs does the same therefore db > gs which is not true as i said in my post. You really can’t give a “dps” value because not every body part takes the same damage isn’t ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ borderlands. So you have to give some arbitrary damage number that is bloated so that people can compare weapons. A dps value would still be inaccurate UNLESS if you completely want to remove weakspots which completely defeats the purpose of positioning which is one of the most combat mechanics in this game. And if that’s fine then go back to playing zoom eternal and cd projekt i can’t finish cyberpunk lmao

Sass isn't constructive and I know this game isn't those games. Only Eternal can be Doom Eternal, etc etc. However the elements of game design are still there and still important.

You don't agree with me and that's fine, but this inflated system and layers on layers on layers of math is silly and could have been handled better in my opinion.

[Sparky]

Originally posted by RedViper:

I honestly gave up when this guy wanted the daggers of all games to have the exact same number as a two handed axe.

If they put the dps, there are going to be even more discussions about which weapon is the best when that is not what the developers want with this game. They are all great, they are all "the best" if you know how to use them, just play the game and enjoy it, instead of complaining on how the math doesn't make any sense like you are trying to calculate the damage of each attach yourself with an abacus.

I never said that, I said the numbers are misleading.

On top of that it's not about what's best. This entire discussion is just about the damage system being silly because it's not accurate.

Again, if you don't agree with me that's fine, but being sassy isn't constructive.

[RedViper]

Originally posted by Sparky:

Originally posted by RedViper:

I honestly gave up when this guy wanted the daggers of all games to have the exact same number as a two handed axe.

If they put the dps, there are going to be even more discussions about which weapon is the best when that is not what the developers want with this game. They are all great, they are all "the best" if you know how to use them, just play the game and enjoy it, instead of complaining on how the math doesn't make any sense like you are trying to calculate the damage of each attach yourself with an abacus.

I never said that, I said the numbers are misleading.

On top of that it's not about what's best. This entire discussion is just about the damage system being silly because it's not accurate.

Again, if you don't agree with me that's fine, but being sassy isn't constructive.

Misleading how? The damage system it's not accurate how? You just say that because you still don't understand it.

Otherwise you would say that in your calculation this weapon doing this attack should do this amount of damage, but the game says otherwise.

[Sparky]

Originally posted by RedViper:

Originally posted by Sparky:

I never said that, I said the numbers are misleading.

On top of that it's not about what's best. This entire discussion is just about the damage system being silly because it's not accurate.

Again, if you don't agree with me that's fine, but being sassy isn't constructive.

Misleading how? The damage system it's not accurate how? You just say that because you still don't understand it.

Otherwise you would say that in your calculation this weapon doing this attack should do this amount of damage, but the game says otherwise.

I've gone through the math, I know how it works. It's just silly and excessive. "700" or "500" or any other number is pretty meaningless in the game. All it tells you is that one does more than the other. You'll never do that much damage though which is misleading.

It's over-engineered. You clearly don't agree, that's fine. But I really don't appreciate the sass. Saying "you don't know" this and "you don't know that" won't help anybody, especially when the only reason I'm talking about this stuff is because I very much so know how it works and believe it to be silly game design.

Game's great, the numbers are silly.

Don't agree with me? That's cool.