Meme Builds VS Meta Builds

[Tregrenos]

If you're not a cheesy speedrunner then every build is a meme build. 99% of the meta builds? All meme builds compared to cheesy speedrunners because there can only ever be 1 true non-meme build. It's the cheesiest, most broken of all the builds. Perhaps it can be on a per-monster basis, but is generally so broken the monster type doesn't matter and says a lot about you as a player.

Do you want to be "that guy" who uses this broken build? Do you think "that guy" sees your "meta" build any differently than he sees a "meme" build? Do you think "that guy" cares that you can beat a monster in 3 minutes or 30 when he can do it in 1?

The question is, which is the absolute cheesiest? My money is on a Sticky bowgun build being the only true non-meme build and every AT released after this should have a hard defense against it. What are y'alls opinions of the cheesiest build out there? If you do not use this build then why do you choose not to? Personally, I think cheesy builds are cheap and prefer playing support.

[Seamus]

Jesus christ. Are you ever not going to be buttmad about the meta existing?

[Tregrenos]

Originally posted by Seamus:

Jesus christ. Are you ever not going to be buttmad about the meta existing?

Please remain on topic as this is a pretty serious question. Well, at least it seems interesting. Is there even a "meta" category when there can only ever be 1 true broken build?

[Remi]

The good part is, as monster are ran more and more, better sets (and routes ofc.) are found because even though we can calculate the theoretical dps we can not calculate for human error or skill. That's why most of the people doing the maths (not to name anyone but you know who) are about average at the game since they lack the experience and knowledge to make use of hyper-optimized sets.
Don't know on what definition of meta you're arguing since there's mutliple and various opinions, but there is never only 1 true non-meme set per monster. Now if we're talking HBG, Bow, GS and co., the biggest balancing issues, of course it's all the same. Because those weapons can actually be played 100% as the theory suggests, since they can stunlock any monster into oblivion. That's why every speedrun for every quest has a billion HBG at the top, all within a few seconds of each other because they're nearly 100% perfect.
Some exceptions apply, Earplugs 5 on GS and HBG were used on Kulve and Ruiner, but that is because of the inherently overtuned weapons just exploiting even more openings.

A meme set per definition is something that stacks useless skills for the sake of it, or uses 16 Attack Boost decos because why not?

Most players cannot make use of hyper optimized sets, let alone take those to multiplayer. That is precisely why everyone abuses stickies, it does not require any effort period. So every sticky abuser you encounter, you see someone who has given up on improving and chose the easy way out.
Every other weapon, even HBG you could argue that routing a run requires effort, even when it's only triggering Heroics and counting damage with Spread 3.

[mewlynx]

It's easy to feel targeted when you see everything in extremes. The reality is that 99% of people you come across aren't going to care what build you're using as long as you're playing competently.

[Tregrenos]

Originally posted by Remi:

The good part is, as monster are ran more and more, better sets (and routes ofc.) are found because even though we can calculate the theoretical dps we can not calculate for human error or skill. That's why most of the people doing the maths (not to name anyone but you know who) are about average at the game since they lack the experience and knowledge to make use of hyper-optimized sets.
Don't know on what definition of meta you're arguing since there's mutliple and various opinions, but there is never only 1 true non-meme set per monster. Now if we're talking HBG, Bow, GS and co., the biggest balancing issues, of course it's all the same. Because those weapons can actually be played 100% as the theory suggests, since they can stunlock any monster into oblivion. That's why every speedrun for every quest has a billion HBG at the top, all within a few seconds of each other because they're nearly 100% perfect.
Some exceptions apply, Earplugs 5 on GS and HBG were used on Kulve and Ruiner, but that is because of the inherently overtuned weapons just exploiting even more openings.

A meme set per definition is something that stacks useless skills for the sake of it, or uses 16 Attack Boost decos because why not?

Most players cannot make use of hyper optimized sets, let alone take those to multiplayer. That is precisely why everyone abuses stickies, it does not require any effort period. So every sticky abuser you encounter, you see someone who has given up on improving and chose the easy way out.
Every other weapon, even HBG you could argue that routing a run requires effort, even when it's only triggering Heroics and counting damage with Spread 3.

I suppose the "1 true non-meme build" would be the one that needs the least possible alterations between monsters. Maybe it's not Sticky because, as you said, that's the EASY way out that requires no skill. But which build requires skill and puts out the most damage while potentially exploiting game mechanics such as stunlocking that it could be classified as the 1 true non-meme build? Does this build require alterations between monsters or is it so broken the most it has to do is swap out a single skill? If, as you say, a meme build is a build that uses a lot useless skills then what do you think a meta build looks like to this 1 true non-meme build?

To quote Vegeta from DBZA, "You're either perfect or you're NOT me. There's no grey area."

https://coub.com/view/erd2m

[Remi]

But there are grey areas in this game obviously. It's not either you run a meme set that does negative damage or you go super tryhard. Look at calculations: With just a weapon we're at an arbitrary 100% damage output. With 100% affinity and 140% crit damage we increase that by 40% which is massive. To compare this to stuff like Peak which gives 20 raw, assume 300 base true raw, with 40% of that being 120, so 6 times the gain from Peak.
If you just go 100% crit and 140% crit damage, you're still within roughly 20% of the damage output of hyper optimized sets, assuming you can keep up sharpness which is not an issue. You could run a meme set with only that and MT being your offensive repertoire and outdamage another player using a set with more attack skills than yours, but is unable to use it well.

The closest to what you're looking for (apart from HBG) would be the standard SnS perfect rush set. There's some skill involved and an actual skill ceiling present, but it shreds every monster as if it were a melee HBG.

[Tregrenos]

Originally posted by Remi:

But there are grey areas in this game obviously. It's not either you run a meme set that does negative damage or you go super tryhard. Look at calculations: With just a weapon we're at an arbitrary 100% damage output. With 100% affinity and 140% crit damage we increase that by 40% which is massive. To compare this to stuff like Peak which gives 20 raw, assume 300 base true raw, with 40% of that being 120, so 6 times the gain from Peak.
If you just go 100% crit and 140% crit damage, you're still within roughly 20% of the damage output of hyper optimized sets, assuming you can keep up sharpness which is not an issue. You could run a meme set with only that and MT being your offensive repertoire and outdamage another player using a set with more attack skills than yours, but is unable to use it well.

The closest to what you're looking for (apart from HBG) would be the standard SnS perfect rush set. There's some skill involved and an actual skill ceiling present, but it shreds every monster as if it were a melee HBG.

I've not kept up recently, so I'm surprised to see SnS as a consideration. How does this build compare to an equally skilled HBG? As far as the "grey area" is concerned, I mean [insert speedrunner] wouldn't consider [insert meta build] worth their time and only take in to account what said speedrunner 'would' consider worthwhile. Not on a "fastest speed with X weapon", but specifically on a "fastest speed" and whether or not they would switch this weapon or involved skills the majority of the time.

Even if you only use broken builds I'm sure there's 1 particular build you'd use more often than not.

[Remi]

HBG decimates everything with no resistance, there is no compettion unless a monster has abhorrent shot hitzones, like Kulve. Even then Pierce HBG got the first and probably only sub 5 Kulve while other top weapons on her finish around 5:30.
Still, there's switching between Spread and Pierce so that's not it according to your definition of single best set, but going from that I don't think there even is such a thing.
You're right that any speedrunner would not use an objectively worse set, and if there were an ultimate all-encompassing set then everyone would use it (Raging/Teo).
But speedrunners are firstly a fraction of the playerbase and secondly not equal. There is a constant contest to improve times by imrpoving themselves or their approaches, something that is never touched upon by 99% of players.
What is this discussion's goal anyway, I've lost track.

[Tregrenos]

Originally posted by Remi:

HBG decimates everything with no resistance, there is no compettion unless a monster has abhorrent shot hitzones, like Kulve. Even then Pierce HBG got the first and probably only sub 5 Kulve while other top weapons on her finish around 5:30.
Still, there's switching between Spread and Pierce so that's not it according to your definition of single best set, but going from that I don't think there even is such a thing.
You're right that any speedrunner would not use an objectively worse set, and if there were an ultimate all-encompassing set then everyone would use it (Raging/Teo).
But speedrunners are firstly a fraction of the playerbase and secondly not equal. There is a constant contest to improve times by imrpoving themselves or their approaches, something that is never touched upon by 99% of players.
What is this discussion's goal anyway, I've lost track.

In Sunshines Alatreon post:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/582010/discussions/0/2441461920663761091/
Nerevar had stated "Nice meme build!" and it got me thinking on this subject. Was curious as to why we even have a "meta" category when there must be at least 1 build out there that's so broken that it makes all other "meta" no better than a "meme" build. At that point, what is "meta" other than another word for "not quite good enough to be the best"?

[Remi]

Well the playerbase had the idea to call it meta and meme I guess. The same playerbase that can't play the game at the level where the distinction between those two would matter.
In the end, player skill is the key and there is no one true set that is always the best, the game is at least balanced a bit I guess.

[Bong-B Rippins]

Originally posted by Remi:

In the end, player skill is the key and there is no one true set that is always the best, the game is at least balanced a bit I guess.

It's key for most builds, but typically people associate "cheesing" with a strategy that allows you to bypass difficulty and skill to achieve victory anyways. Sticky ammo suits this description perfectly. It requires no skill and turns any fight into a pushover.

[Polaris]

There are plenty of good general purpose sets, but there isn't any 1 set that beats out every other 100% if the time (even for speed runners, the tip time on a given monster has different builds for different monsters, and number if players)

I use mostly hbg and insect glaive, and I use different builds for different monsters, most often switching resists, antiblast for raging brachy, thunder resist for arch tempered namielle etc.

Make a build you enjoy, and modify it for the monster, maybe you want earplugs 5 on seething bazel, but you won't need those on lavasioth, so slot in more defense for damage.

My rule of thumb, if a monster carts me more then once in a fight, I slot in more defense, if I only cart once, or I don't cart at all, I slot in more damage (I play solo mostly though, for multiplayer I would shoot for no carts at all)

[Commander Jane Shepard]

Originally posted by maelynx:

It's easy to feel targeted when you see everything in extremes. The reality is that 99% of people you come across aren't going to care what build you're using as long as you're playing competently.

honestly this,in MHW MP setting as long as you dont cart because of some stupid ♥♥♥♥,carting twice,or rage quit because of someone/themself got carted early and the party finish the quest its good enough for me

[♋Phenex]

Imo you can separate meta into general use meta and speedrunner meta because speedrunners fit as many damage increasing skills as possible while the typical user gets as much damage as possible along with HB3.

The typical user will not have the skill to use speedrunner meta builds in most cases making the general use meta set more efficient because it prevents dying while also having high damage output.

[JanWar]

Meme, you mean like this right?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2124917442