True damage and what it means with weapon choice question.

[Codo]

Okay. So I love Monster HUnter. I have for a long time.

But it was back during 4 Ultimate, that I found out about the "True damage" stuff, like how damage values were calculated. I know things have also changed for Monster Hunter World a bit, but the fact remains still that from what I can see...

It looks like Sword and Shield, when calculated on average, has the same strength of Great Sword. So... Why use Greatsword, when the SnS attacks faster by that point? If they both output the same damage value, when it comes to on individual average attacks, why bother with something that has a slower attack speed at that point, when I can bring more DPS by just using the SnS?

Like, I use a Gunlance normally. Yeah, it's slow, and it's a pain in the arse sometimes. I like it though. But I also love fighting with my SnS now and then... But when I have two weapons, both doing the same damage per attack, but one doing it FASTER, and they are BOTH end-level weapons, complete with augmentation... Why use the slower one by that point, ya know?

I'm not saying I do, because I find the fun OF using the weapon pretty intrinsic to it. But if I'm gonna go full min-maxing munchkin, and try to be the most EFFECTIVE hunter, rather than just dinkin' about, why would I pick something heavy and unwieldy like the GS, when I can get the same job done faster by being a flailing noodle arm baby with the Dual Swords or something? (I like all the weapons, before ya light me up for daring mock THE GREAT DUAL SWORDS. :T )

---

So to make a long post short: When the weapons I do do the same damage per individual attack, both end level weapons... Why even bother, when trying to be effective, to choose something like the GS, when I could maximize my damage by choosing something like SnS or DS? I'd like some legit answers. Cuz maybe I'm only seeing part of the picture. I know that damage is calculated by a LARGE number of things... But I want an actual REASON to choose other weapons for THEIR effectiveness, that min-maxing doesn't mean using one of 3 speed-runner style weapons, and that the GS, or Switch Axe, or Charge Blade CAN be legit choices when trying to be the most effective.

[Vahnkiljoy]

Motion values, takes far less hits to cut a tail off with a gs than a sns because each swing does more.

[lmaogg]

because style points? That's why there is no "beSt wEapOn" (lol @ the other thread) or what sort in this game which is good. It let's you play whatever you like and still git gud at it.

[Maskeno]

I mean, it really comes down to play style. I'm not just playing to be as effective as possible. I'm playing to have fun. Style is a thing here.

Not to mention skill. Some folks like pushing their limits, killing with whatever to see if they can. I personally have been a devout long sword user since 'freedom' It's just the playstyle I find the most appealing.

[Azure Fang]

"True Damage" only considers per strike. It does not factor in attack speed, moveset, defense capabilities, sharpness lengths, and special abilities (to an extent). It's a raw figure and only that. How a player uses those additional factors is far more important in the grand scheme of things.

[Maskeno]

Originally posted by Vahnkiljoy:

Motion values, takes far less hits to cut a tail off with a gs than a sns because each swing does more.

Also a really solid point.

[Bike Knight]

Bigger weapons stun more often, stuns mean opportunities for free damage.

[langnao]

Don't get u. GS doing same dmg as SnS? A charge attack from GS deals hundreds to the monster. I have seen 500+ hitting the face of Teostra. How much does SnS deal? If u r saying SnS thou low dmg but can hit faster as many hits from it = 1 smack from GS? But the monster doesn't stay there for u to smack, it moves around so its difficult to maintain DPS. GS is awesome. Its slow and requires good positioning. But if u can pull off, u deal massive dmg or knock out to monster. Its relative. A fast weaon deals less dmg per hits but a slow weapon deals massive dmg per hits ...

[!?!]

Try wakeup slapping a sleeping monster, would you rather have sword and shield or a greatsword?
Thought so.

[Vahnkiljoy]

OP looked at some numbers and thought he knew everything while ignoring other major things, like how weapons only use a fraction of the damage number shown.

[BurlsoL]

Weapons also seemingly have other properties, like impact force for sake of stagger, sharpness for breaking off parts, as well as range and the way the weapon moves. Then there is affinity which makes hits more likely to be critical but does not seem to change the numbers displayed.

Min-Max doesn't work in this game, really. Weapon choice is largely about personal preference with some initial limitations for status or element. A monster doesn't just stand there, so trying to figure out dps from a mathematical standpoint does not work.

For example, you can compare dual swords with switch axe. Given ~9 damage per strike from swords, ~25. Dual swords hit for less damage, but you can hit more often while fighting an agile enemy. But, the axe hits harder with each strike and can quickly bridge the DPS gap if the enemy is made stationary. It's highly situational and dependent on what you like best for a particular fight.

Monster health also seems to be variable and will seemingly recover any time the monster feeds or is left on its own for a few moments. This is why you can have a limping monster flee to some area other than its nest (often just walking right past it), stand there looking fine, take another hit, then finally start limping back to its nest to sleep it off. Or why some monsters can seemingly take much longer to kill just because you had to wait till something else passed through the area to continue fighting at one point or another.

[strata_ranger]

Here's how it breaks down:

"Bloated" attack power (e.g. MH4U, MHW) conveys the average damage per hit from that weapon. However, a few swings in the training arena will learn you which weapons hit quickly or slowly compared to others. Yes the GS will hit very hard, but in the time it takes to swing that GS once, a SnS can easily land 2-4 hits, and the total damage dealt more or less balances out.

"True" attack power (e.g. MH Generations) conveys the weapon's overall DPS; weapons made from the same materials generally have the same true attack as each other. The tradeoff is that fast-hitting weapons inflict less damage per hit -- which is also immediately apparent when you start using the weapon.

[ImHelping]

A greatsword is always going to hit harder than a Gunlance, but explosions bypass armor which makes their embarrasing "8 damage!" shellings add up.

Then there are utility options like others have mentioned.

Sword and Shield has an on demand mounting attack, alongside blunt options if you wanna flail with your shield, and the ability to use items without putting away your weapon first.

DPS will always matter no matter how much people try to claim otherwise.

But at the same time, how convenient you find a weapon to use will always be more important than lab conditions spread sheets. If you hate using the "Best" weapon, it's gonna be worse DPS than using a "Second rate" weapon you have no problem using.

Back to Gun Lance for example. "Wide has the best shelling damage and wyrm damage!!!!" Yes, this is true. But you also only get 2 ammo by default, 3 tops with a capacity skill, for one example convenience vs theory.

A roar, a bad position, ANYTHING that interrupts your EZ "mash circle 3 times" shell shell stake combo that can't bonce off armor like your melee combo into stake can with a bad position (hello, Iron MK 3 vs Barroth), means you have to stop and reload with a wide type. No. Matter. What.

With a long or normal type, you have more wiggle room to **** up and still have 2 in the chamber to try again for that combo. And so on.

[Saiha]

Originally posted by chris:

Try wakeup slapping a sleeping monster, would you rather have sword and shield or a greatsword?
Thought so.

i wake them up with large barrel bombs :D

[Bike Knight]

Originally posted by Saiha:

Originally posted by chris:

Try wakeup slapping a sleeping monster, would you rather have sword and shield or a greatsword?
Thought so.

i wake them up with large barrel bombs :D

Not even Mega Barrel Bombs? Weak.

[langnao]

Originally posted by Bike Knight:

Originally posted by Saiha:

i wake them up with large barrel bombs :D

Not even Mega Barrel Bombs? Weak.

After sometime its a waste of mega barrel bomb. But if ur teammates have fainted twice, better be safe than sorry...