Why are so many idiots saying: “XML editing is illegal”

[Micro.Wav]

Like how miserable do you have to be to actually care, not just that but I really don’t see how using xml editing in advertisements, a tool EVERYONE can use, should be labelled as wrong?

You can do it yourself, don’t make your incompetence other peoples problems.

This has got to be the lowest iq thread ever 🤣🤣🤣

[slapworthjr]

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

Originally posted by Quack:

They are coddled idiots who never went out to deal with legitimate problems.
Their drama is completely pathetic all things considered.
Those people do not matter.

You are free to cheat as you like in singleplayer. The question is spreading that cheated nonsense to circulation and using it in multiplayer.

Originally posted by Captain Oveur:

You can XML edit minecraft? I thought it (still) used a different file format. Also, why are you using a different game for your examples? Minecraft, you can use an external editor to fully create something. I’ve used the editor before to fix creations and add some decor to it. As far as I’m aware, with Stormworks, you kinda gotta at least do an initial build, and then the editor is notepad.exe (or equivalent).

As to the rest of that, I see and somewhat agree with. If the values are edited to get closer to real-world performance (such as when making a historically accurate recreation), that’s one thing. Doing it just because you want more speed/power/etc, I don’t agree with. Maybe if it’s to be used as a kind of example to help people figure out how to edit for their own personal creations. Or perhaps to aid with a scenario/mission (system failure simulation). IMO, a simple disclaimer could (and should) be made in the workshop description whenever an XML edit is used:
“XML edited for visuals”
“XML edited for performance”

Because it's an example of building complex shapes with nothing but cubes and cubes sliced in half, like clearly stated in the message you surely read.

Stormworks Hull Builder has been a thing since 0.4 or so, meaning about 3-4 years by now, you can just make a simple hullshape in Blender in 1-2 minutes and then Stormworks Hull Builder will deal with the rest.

Unfortunately almost every single XML edit i've come across on the workshop has not been limited to visuals. Cheated setups are epidemic on the workshop, where a significant amount of uploads have several times the power values in engines, batteries and so on, and often these vehicles don't even have visual edits. An annoyingly high amount of high-profile creators have done this, despite information how to design engines and vehicles are readily available.

This is one of the major reasons why i'd prefer the game to do at least an alert in-game when a sanity check fails on the XML values of a craft, and prevent uploading modified shít onto the workshop using the same system. I don't care about modified windows if the volumes are sealed properly, and nearly anyone arguing against this doesn't either.



The funny thing is the most people who argue against XML editing are veteran creators and guide writers, and the vast majority of people who argue for XML editing are people with maybe 50 hours of actually building anything in the game + idle time and zero knowledge of its mechanics. There are so many people with 500-1000 hours in the game that don't know what a PID is or what engine overheating values are off the top of their heads.

The best part was when i argued with someone who supposedly had 2700 hours in the game about whether or not it was possible to go above 40m/s in a boat without jet engines or XML cheating the engines.

Many large-scale minecraft builds like those are made with external tools or fill commands. No one complains then.

Also, I can still make something without XML. It will work fine. It fill look fine. However, if my goal is to make a plane that looks like a plane, I want the windows to be shaped right, my landing gear to be hidden, and my leading edges sloped correctly. There are workarounds, sure, but they will cause lag and other problems and just not work as well. This does not make me an incompetent builder. I may not be great, no, but XML does not impact my level of skill. There are many great creations by skilled people on the workshop that use cosmetic XML. They have been playing the game for years. Are all of them just noobs to you?

[MrMereScratch]

Why does any of this matter? Why are you still arguing?
(*)If you care so much about this being "illegal", then go take a case out against Stormworks!
(*)If you care so much about being owned by XML-edited creations, then don't play Multiplayer!
(*)And so what if it shows that people "have no skill"? This is a game. Who are you to judge them? And if they can XML edit, then they know a thing or two about the game!
(*)And how is XML editing outside of the game? It's literally editing the GAME files...
(*)There's things in life that aren't fair, but there's not much you can do about it. Get used to XML-edits, because they aren't going anywhere.

[MrMereScratch]

And to you, Microwave

Originally posted by DJ MICROWAVE:

Like how miserable do you have to be to actually care?

You seem to care. Why else would you have vented on this post YOU created about the topic?

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

Originally posted by MrMereScratch:

Why does any of this matter? Why are you still arguing?
(*)If you care so much about this being "illegal", then go take a case out against Stormworks!
(*)If you care so much about being owned by XML-edited creations, then don't play Multiplayer!
(*)And so what if it shows that people "have no skill"? This is a game. Who are you to judge them? And if they can XML edit, then they know a thing or two about the game!
(*)And how is XML editing outside of the game? It's literally editing the GAME files...
(*)There's things in life that aren't fair, but there's not much you can do about it. Get used to XML-edits, because they aren't going anywhere.

I'll happily answer all of these.

1. No one has claimed they are illegal.
2. Nobody is being owned by anyone else's vehicle. I can crash any server or ban them as a client on the server, by that logic, are they being owned by me?
3. Cheating being used as a crutch is a clear indication of having no skill.
4. Because it's done outside of the game, obviously.
5. Nobody has claimed anything about fairness.

[Captain Oveur]

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

Because it's an example of building complex shapes with nothing but cubes and cubes sliced in half, like clearly stated in the message you surely read.

Minecraft:
Has block-shaped blocks
Almost every block is stationary
Gravity affects a few blocks
Enchanting is basically the only system that can be manipulated

Stormworks:
Has block-shaped blocks
Has non-block-shaped blocks (wedges, pyramids) (granted they were designed to fit the block-like grid of the editor)
Has engines
Has electricity
Has wheels
Has pivots (*cough cough* they can turn to make angles *cough cough*)

My point here is that you provided another game to argue your..argument, yet failed to actually *make* that argument. You’re arguing about XML editing to “cheat,” but the example provided was purely about looks and being able to actually make something without doing any editing—something you outright said you was okay with since it’s purely visual edits. How is using MCEdit to rotate a block by 45 degrees the same as using XML to pentouple battery capacity and overwrite heat transfer rates? This is what I was getting at with what I said.

Stormworks Hull Builder has been a thing since 0.4 or so, meaning about 3-4 years by now, you can just make a simple hullshape in Blender in 1-2 minutes and then Stormworks Hull Builder will deal with the rest.

Assuming “you” have tons of experience with Blender (I have a feeling most of us don’t). If I did have that experience, though, I definitely would since my hulls suck (apparently, based on personal experience)

Cheated setups are epidemic on the workshop, where a significant amount of uploads have several times the power values in engines, batteries and so on, and often these vehicles don't even have visual edits.

And yet I don’t see you complaining about the flywheel glitch. It uses zero XML editing (as far as I’m aware) and can get vehicles to ridiculous speeds.

This is one of the major reasons why i'd prefer the game to do at least an alert in-game when a sanity check fails on the XML values of a craft, and prevent uploading modified shít onto the workshop using the same system. I don't care about modified windows if the volumes are sealed properly, and nearly anyone arguing against this doesn't either.

That’d be a lot of checks to do. Not saying impossible or even hard; just a lot of it.

The funny thing is the most people who argue against XML editing are veteran creators and guide writers, and the vast majority of people who argue for XML editing are people with maybe 50 hours of actually building anything in the game + idle time and zero knowledge of its mechanics. There are so many people with 500-1000 hours in the game that don't know what a PID is or what engine overheating values are off the top of their heads.

I probably couldn’t even give a half-correct explanation for what a PID is, and I do electronics as a real-life hobby. And since I’ve only ever worked with coal (and now nuclear), I can’t even begin to guess what the overheat values are

The best part was when i argued with someone who supposedly had 2700 hours in the game about whether or not it was possible to go above 40m/s in a boat without jet engines or XML cheating the engines.

I’m going to say yes. Idt I’ve managed to hit it, but I think I might’ve came close? If I made the boat smaller and a bit more lightweight, perhaps. Now I feel challenged to pull this off…but at another time because I already have a few projects lined up for the next few days.

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

Originally posted by Captain Oveur:

Minecraft:
Has block-shaped blocks
Almost every block is stationary
Gravity affects a few blocks
Enchanting is basically the only system that can be manipulated

Stormworks:
Has block-shaped blocks
Has non-block-shaped blocks (wedges, pyramids) (granted they were designed to fit the block-like grid of the editor)
Has engines
Has electricity
Has wheels
Has pivots (*cough cough* they can turn to make angles *cough cough*)

The other point of using minecraft as an example is because Stormwork's shapes are infinitely more complex. It's a counter-argument against the claim that you need to use XML editing to make your vehicles look good.

Originally posted by Captain Oveur:

Assuming “you” have tons of experience with Blender (I have a feeling most of us don’t). If I did have that experience, though, I definitely would since my hulls suck (apparently, based on personal experience)

If you have zero experience in Blender instead of 1 minute it'll take 10-20 the very first time you'll do it, then the next time you do it it'll be 3-4 minutes. Blender isn't exactly difficult to use for simple shapes like hulls.

Originally posted by Captain Oveur:

And yet I don’t see you complaining about the flywheel glitch. It uses zero XML editing (as far as I’m aware) and can get vehicles to ridiculous speeds.

Glitches are something that can be fixed by adjusting game mechanics because the issue exists inside the game, not outside of it.

Originally posted by Captain Oveur:

That’d be a lot of checks to do. Not saying impossible or even hard; just a lot of it.

Nope, it takes about 10-30ms whenever you load or try to upload something. Making a sanity check system takes roughly 3-4 hours of programming for one guy.



As for the knowledge about the game: Yep, i kinda guessed that.

[Lystent]

Regarding people using XML editing to get more accurate shapes onto their creation:
Most I care about is that it breaks the balance (what little there is) by an insignificant amount. I don't do it myself for that purpose, and that it takes a bit of the challenge out.

Regarding devs advertising XML edited creations: All I know is that Valve wants you to show what is possible with the game. IDK the specifics about adding a text editor to what may or may not be considered "modding" on the side.

Back to regarding the players XML editing: So, about that "insignificant" balance break I've mentioned earlier, sounds like some players have exploited that. Using it to get something that works IRL to work in SW is one thing, but there will always be those people who use whatever exploit they could to get an edge in PVP. Albeit, IDK how big SW PVP is.

So my final opinion is: XML editing is is a broken mechanic, so advertising it is akin to advertising a pair of torn socks (as torn socks).

[Captain Oveur]

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

The other point of using minecraft as an example is because Stormwork's shapes are infinitely more complex. It's a counter-argument against the claim that you need to use XML editing to make your vehicles look good.

So…you’re arguing against something you yourself agree with? Or are you talking very specifically about using only XML to build stuff? If anything, that would be impressive since they’re starting with very little—if any—base and then building a structure around it without seeing what they’re doing as they go, unlike those of us that use the editor

If you have zero experience in Blender instead of 1 minute it'll take 10-20 the very first time you'll do it, then the next time you do it it'll be 3-4 minutes. Blender isn't exactly difficult to use for simple shapes like hulls.

Yeah, based on my previous experience with 3d modeling, I’m calling bs on this. I will admit that it’s been quite a long time since I used Blender and the computer I was using absolutely sucked ***, but it was taking me 10-20 minutes just to get shapes placed and aligned. But I’ll take this as a challenge too, though it’ll likely be next week. I’ll download it again and see how long it takes me to make a hull (I’ve been wanting to try my hand at 3d again since my student license for autocad expired).

Glitches are something that can be fixed by adjusting game mechanics because the issue exists inside the game, not outside of it.

That doesn’t change the fact that it’s a commonly-exploited glitch used to cheat the system. Plus it’s a billion times easier to do since you don’t have to scroll through a massive text file (after figuring out where it’s saved) and find the specific sets of numbers to modify.

“[…]can be fixed by adjusting[…]”
Except they’d also have to do a bunch of testing to make sure they didn’t break anything else, which is almost guaranteed to happen. Then fix the new issues without reintroducing the original issue or bringing in yet even more problems. And face it, this is Stormworks we’re talking about. We’re lucky that anything new they release isn’t already broken.

Nope, it takes about 10-30ms whenever you load or try to upload something. Making a sanity check system takes roughly 3-4 hours of programming for one guy.

As someone who made a very, very simple game by myself, I’m calling major bs on this. Actually writing the code, maybe, but there’s a s*** ton more to it than simply writing a handful of lines. You (they) need to figure out where to insert the new code, what chunks of existing code would need to be escaped/exited from during the check failure, the actual exiting of that code without crashing the rest of the script(s) and so on. It’ll take me 3-4 hours to fix my own game (the high score system, specifically), and it uses flowchart programming; chunks of prebuilt code that connect together by drawing lines between them! With SW, the devs would sit down, looking at a script they have only a generalized idea of what does and scan through it, reading and writing in C++ (probably). We’re talking about a group of people who will spend two weeks to release one new part and its icon in the editor is a straight copy/paste from a previously-existing part, and yet you expect them to be capable of doing the previous stuff I mentioned in less than half of one work shift?

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

I'm skipping the brain damaged part.

Originally posted by Captain Oveur:

Yeah, based on my previous experience with 3d modeling, I’m calling bs on this. I will admit that it’s been quite a long time since I used Blender and the computer I was using absolutely sucked ***, but it was taking me 10-20 minutes just to get shapes placed and aligned. But I’ll take this as a challenge too, though it’ll likely be next week. I’ll download it again and see how long it takes me to make a hull (I’ve been wanting to try my hand at 3d again since my student license for autocad expired).

1 minute 7 seconds.[i.imgur.com] That's well less than 2 minutes starting from the desktop with Blender unopened, and then exporting it as FBX. I'm not exactly proficient with Blender either.
I had to speed the video up by 15% (rate 1.15) to make it fit imgur's 60 second video limit. Such a cancerous site, wish there was a better easily accessed video host.

Originally posted by Captain Oveur:

That doesn’t change the fact that it’s a commonly-exploited glitch used to cheat the system. Plus it’s a billion times easier to do since you don’t have to scroll through a massive text file (after figuring out where it’s saved) and find the specific sets of numbers to modify.

Ctrl+F.

Originally posted by Captain Oveur:

“[…]can be fixed by adjusting[…]”
Except they’d also have to do a bunch of testing to make sure they didn’t break anything else, which is almost guaranteed to happen. Then fix the new issues without reintroducing the original issue or bringing in yet even more problems. And face it, this is Stormworks we’re talking about. We’re lucky that anything new they release isn’t already broken.

Not really, just add a huge penalty if a flywheel is attached to 2 other flywheels. The fix takes roughly 5 minutes to implement and test.

Originally posted by Captain Oveur:

As someone who made a very, very simple game by myself, I’m calling major bs on this. Actually writing the code, maybe, but there’s a s*** ton more to it than simply writing a handful of lines. You (they) need to figure out where to insert the new code, what chunks of existing code would need to be escaped/exited from during the check failure, the actual exiting of that code without crashing the rest of the script(s) and so on. It’ll take me 3-4 hours to fix my own game (the high score system, specifically), and it uses flowchart programming; chunks of prebuilt code that connect together by drawing lines between them! With SW, the devs would sit down, looking at a script they have only a generalized idea of what does and scan through it, reading and writing in C++ (probably). We’re talking about a group of people who will spend two weeks to release one new part and its icon in the editor is a straight copy/paste from a previously-existing part, and yet you expect them to be capable of doing the previous stuff I mentioned in less than half of one work shift?

I've been making games professionally for 11 years. Sanity checking is extremely simple to implement and extremely cheap. All you do is search the save file for identifiers and then compare values with known values. I could concept a functional script for it within an hour and i would not need to know anything of the game's existing code.
This is especially easy when it's a structured markup language as it allows you to thread a process essentially infinitely without issues.

[Micro.Wav]

You guys really need a life

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

Originally posted by DJ MICROWAVE:

You guys really need a life

That's rich coming from someone who starts a thread under false pretenses. Especially when you're more than likely below 18 years old, so you haven't done anything of note yet.

[Micro.Wav]

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

Originally posted by DJ MICROWAVE:

You guys really need a life

That's rich coming from someone who starts a thread under false pretenses. Especially when you're more than likely below 18 years old, so you haven't done anything of note yet.

hurt ur feeling didnt it XD

[Lystent]

Originally posted by DJ MICROWAVE:

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

That's rich coming from someone who starts a thread under false pretenses. Especially when you're more than likely below 18 years old, so you haven't done anything of note yet.

hurt ur feeling didnt it XD

I have a feeling yours got hurt, or why else did you overwrite the OP into a garbage post?

[Captain Oveur]

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

I'm skipping the brain damaged part.

Oh, I didn’t know you had brain damage. Here, let me collect these two quotes together for you to help you understand your own arguments.

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

I don't care about modified windows if the volumes are sealed properly, and nearly anyone arguing against this doesn't either.

“Visual edits are okay with me and nearly everyone else”

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

All that being said, in general the issue is with simply visually modified XML vehicles

“The issue is with visually modified vehicles”

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

Originally posted by Captain Oveur:

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

I'm skipping the brain damaged part.

Oh, I didn’t know you had brain damage. Here, let me collect these two quotes together for you to help you understand your own arguments.

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

I don't care about modified windows if the volumes are sealed properly, and nearly anyone arguing against this doesn't either.

“Visual edits are okay with me and nearly everyone else”

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

All that being said, in general the issue is with simply visually modified XML vehicles

“The issue is with visually modified vehicles”

Or, if you would bother to for once read what you're replying to, you could quote the entire quote, which states:

All that being said, in general the issue is with simply visually modified XML vehicles, in vast majority of cases engine values and other functional values are adjusted as a crutch.

Which means there is quite obviously a typo there. Anyone with even a loose grasp on the English language can figure that one out. I truly apologize if you can't figure it out, and have fixed the typo for you.