Jet Engine dies during flight.

[Eagle]

Ok so pretty new to storm works but Ive built a few things now after a few days.
Got into building my own helicopter not a bar bones one but something like a Sea hawk/MH53. Anyway Jet Engine is being used I did not put the exhaust on it I left it off.
Ive got a push start for the engine. 3 Large fuel tanks all set to Jet Fuel.

Ive got everything hooked up for sure. The engine starts I fire up the rotors raise the Cyclic pitch and went to take off after working many hours on it for my first mission using it and got not even a few hundred meters out and BOOM... It boomed like I had lowered the throttle then started winding down and my bird fell like a rock into the sea. I frantically searched for the engine start button again but it was too late water rushed and I was back at the work bench.

So what happened? How can stop the engine from dying in flight?

I followed NJerseys tutorial I have the engines throttle hooked into the PID I have the everything hooked up like its supposed to be and the engines limited to 150 like he said to set it to. My throttle was max setting I was off the collective and tilting for the speed in the direction I wanted to go and Boom!! No warning something was wrong just instant No more engines on. Kaput...

Njersey advises not to fly with the engine on constantly so after it spools and I have power to the rotors I shut it off and let the rotors continue. I tested this out on the ground for several mins to be sure the engine was ready to go. But it seems like theres an issue and I dont think its the pilot.

[Philonious Rex]

There appears to be a threshold of Air pressure / RPS that will destroy parts of the Jet engine if they are ever gone over. In testing this it is fairly fickle

I was able to reproduce a failure at 315k air pressure fairly consistently somewhere around 130 rps? I'm not sure which metric is the failure point but it's irrelevant since they are tied together. However if I shut the engine down and repaired it with a blow torch it was then able to survive upwards of 400k air pressure (I don't know what units)

Further testing and I somehow created a rig that was seemingly unable to get to a high enough pressure threshold to fail.

either way the trick is to make sure that the engine never goes over that threshold. The failure will be different depending on what parts are attached. If there is an afterburner there will be an explosion with fire. If there is not than it will just lose power and spin at a lower rate.

The PID tuning may be off? or some other factor may be allowing the Pressure / RPS to continue to build. In any case maybe you could create a controller between the Engine throttle controller and the engine itself that measures the Pressure and if it detects that the pressure or RPS has gone too high than it dials the throttle back.

I create something that is essentially a temperature cut off switch. Where if an engine goes over 80 temp it sets the throttle to 0. The funny thing is it will modulate it so fast that it's almost like an RPM limiter on a car where the engine will bounce on and off of that and not really feel like you are totally cutting power. But on the jet engine maybe just have the Throttle input subtract .2 or something? Of course the PID will try and fight you so yeah any way.

That's as far as I can guess without seeing the actual build.
Other reasons for loss of power could include
running out of fuel
turning off a fuel pump
any kind of valve restriction or something wonky in any of the controllers.

But my guess is the engine just wound up too high and went poof.

One way to test would be to throttle it all the way up and see if you can replicate it while low over the ground. Then land and see if you can repair it with a torch. If you can then you know it's spooling up too much.

Apologies for the long post.

[pontfogel]

Originally posted by Eaglezero6205:

Ok so pretty new to storm works but Ive built a few things now after a few days.
Got into building my own helicopter not a bar bones one but something like a Sea hawk/MH53. Anyway Jet Engine is being used I did not put the exhaust on it I left it off.
Ive got a push start for the engine. 3 Large fuel tanks all set to Jet Fuel.

Ive got everything hooked up for sure. The engine starts I fire up the rotors raise the Cyclic pitch and went to take off after working many hours on it for my first mission using it and got not even a few hundred meters out and BOOM... It boomed like I had lowered the throttle then started winding down and my bird fell like a rock into the sea. I frantically searched for the engine start button again but it was too late water rushed and I was back at the work bench.

So what happened? How can stop the engine from dying in flight?

I followed NJerseys tutorial I have the engines throttle hooked into the PID I have the everything hooked up like its supposed to be and the engines limited to 150 like he said to set it to. My throttle was max setting I was off the collective and tilting for the speed in the direction I wanted to go and Boom!! No warning something was wrong just instant No more engines on. Kaput...

Njersey advises not to fly with the engine on constantly so after it spools and I have power to the rotors I shut it off and let the rotors continue. I tested this out on the ground for several mins to be sure the engine was ready to go. But it seems like theres an issue and I dont think its the pilot.

At 150 rps the engines will consume enormous amounts of fuel. Use gearing. Run them at the lowest rps possible. I can't remember exact values, but maybe 5-10 rps or so.
Also at 150 rps they may self destruct. I don't know the exact conditions for that (I never ran jets at the limit) but at around that kind of rps they will "explode" (boom sound) and die.
I wouldn't intentionally turn my engine off when I was airborne in a helicopter. Would you? Use better gearing and save fuel that way instead.

[Eagle]

Thanks Gents so what Im gathering is the RPS is going to high with throttle to max and killing "Exploding the Engine" But as you stated without an afterburner just shuts down.

Killing the engine starter is a bad idea.

So as for the RPS. I am working on trying to get the Control panel to work Im pretty new to storm works and though I found a tutorial video out of 3 that I watched I was only able to use one of them and replicate it however only 3 of the 4 instruments worked and I did everything exactly as he did in the video for that.

I have instruments set up to monitor all three stage of every piece of the Engine just havent got the dials to work yet though I have the microcontrollers set up they seem to not function. Still working on that.

As I stated in Njerseys video he said you dont want to fly around everywhere with the engine starter on because itll strain the engine and drain your battery quickly. So he said to just start it let it spool and kill it. Which is what I did. 15-20 seconds rev up got the rotors going and gave the cyclic up the rotors were at max throttle for just a matter of a few seconds and boom. Engine died.

About that .2 I recall somewhere in one of the videos something about -2 or something like that. Maybe I missed a part Idk. I watched both of Mr. Njerseys videos both for setting up a jet engine and building an advanced helicopter.

I originally had a medium aircraft engine in it but the rotors cyclic would not function and the engine kept on catching fire thus the switch over to Jet Engine from Diesel.

Id be happy to upload it and let you to a whack at it and see if you can sort the issue
Im not sure what to do Im not a programmer and Im still really new to the game so Im not sure what logic components I need to set a limit or code I need to do it with.

Keep in mind if I upload it the Fuselage was not actually meant to be a serious build it just turned into one. I set out to see if I could build a helicopter/Boat. Heliboat. But once I did I then refined it did away witht he boat pieces of it and made it into something presentable.

One other thing I will mention in case this could be part of the issue. In the tutorial he places the engine directly behind the intakes. I didnt want my intakes inside the aircraft so I put three intakes on the roof of the chopper and used ducts to route them into the engine at the rear of the chopper.

[Eagle]

So I figured this out. Youre going to laugh but well like I said Im still working on it and Im relying on dials in the rear to show my tanks. I failed to realize the creation is charging me fuel costs upon spawning... I thought it just default spawned it full. This explains now also why my other ship I made Im now 22000 in the hole on. I noticed it was charging me when I saved the game last night and had a grand left to see suddenly I had no money left on spawn I checked the fuel gauges this time because the engine would spoil but I got zero combustion I knew that meant one thing. No Fuel to combust. So last night I was running out of fuel. I had been working on for several hours and was up late so It didnt dawn on me youre probably running out of fuel and I didnt know it charged you for fuel every time you spawned it back in... I know now when building my creations to place the tanks Empty till Im ready to use it then spawn them full... Big Sad I wonder how many thousands of dollars I went through spawn testing LOL.

Well so now there is another serious issue... I get half way to where Im going and my creation disappears while Im flying and dumps me right in the ocean. That I am puzzled by.

[Eagle]

I think I just read why its disappearing. I had built a mobile Helipad I kept on floats underneath the chopper since I was building at the base across the bridge from the Beginner coast guard station which has no ability to spawn anything on land. I created it. They said I guess that I need to spawn each one separate. Idk

Newbie Woes. Thanks anyhow yall. Im glad I got it sorted. Thank you both for your help.

[pontfogel]

I didn't realize you meant the starter. I thought you meant turning the jet off once the rotors had gained speed. The starter should indeed only be active when you're starting the jet and should then be disabled. I just used a push button that I kept pressed down while starting but you can always make it fancier and automated if you want to.
You really don't need to monitor all the parameters of a jet engine unless you like complicated panels. Rps is all you actually need once the engine is working. You can always convert it to rpm for realism. You'll need to re-tune your PID if you use the rpm as a variable, though.
Intake placemant doesn't matter for jets. Save weight and use one (or three) at the front of the engine. If you want to, use another (or three) for cosmetics on the outside of your craft but don't bother connecting it/them.

The missing fuel thing is something I think everyone who ever played this game has encountered. When something goes wrong it helps to stop, sit back and go through every step of what makes your craft work to see if your missing something. Chasing errors that doesn't exist is frustrating and - once you realize what you should have done in the first place - annoying.

For your despawning problem there should be a "keep alive" block that prevents your craft from despawning in your inventory. Try that.

[Philonious Rex]

To be clear, I was bringing my jet to failure intentionally to test the problem that Eagle was talking about, as opposed to running at 150 rps intentionally.

Yes "running out of fuel" was one of my guesses so I'm not too surprised, they can get really thirsty especially at higher throttle. And the game is so complex it's easy to miss something like that.

As far as testing goes, I recommend using "Custom" mode Vs Career mode which is basically creative mode, until you have something that works. That way you don't waste money and you can just teleport the vehicle back when it inevitably fails or explodes or catches fire etc.

As for monitoring with Dials / Gauges. I recommend turning your tooltips in the settings from None to Simple or Advanced.
On simple I think you press PgUp to see detailed information, on Advanced it's on by default. This will show you every statistic that is possible to see on a component without having to make dials for each thing. Then you can just make dials for the data you need when you get it working. You'll be an all knowing being.

Making the logic for dials and controls can take a while because the compound components all require custom Logic though it's not complex it is just time consuming to make each of those.

It sounds like you have it mostly figured out, at least it's just a fuel problem.

[Eagle]

WELL... So I thought I had fixed the issue. That evidently wasnt the issue.
I am however having fuel troubles. Im trying to diagnose the issue now.
Since my control panels arent working I set up 3 gauges for each piece of the engine
and unhooked all the tanks but one closest to the engine and Im working my way back the problem however is really strange.

I know that the large tanks should be giving me 750 ish Fuel per large tank.
That isnt happening Im getting only around 400-520 ish from each Tank Ive got two large Tanks under the engine I have a Large Fluid Pump hooked directly into the engine I run dow about two pipes from that pump and go another 5 or 6 links and theres my first Tank. Facing down now because I was starting to believe facing it up was preventing it getting all of the fuel out into the engine that however was not the case.

I ran the engine first at idle and verified all RPS Temp and AIr gauges of all three were normal and checked my Fuel Gauge. I found that that if a Tank is connected to a dial the micro Control fuel tank read out will not display a number on the digital display at all. Or well so I think Im not sure on this Because I think there was a time I got no digital reading but the dial did show one. So Im not sure. about that.

Anyhow I run the engine up to 50% and check all gauges they show to be about 20RPS at 50 when I increase the throttle to 100% they all show to be reading 60RPS. When I raise the cyclic all the way up they actually go down in RPS to 50% ish Temps are all around 3 or 4.

So I run the engine till the tank is empty. Ive only got 2000S so Im not sure if 550 Gallons is all my money will buy and that it is only giving me 550 ish gallons for my money and that the tanks actually will hold more and theres no fuel flow issue Im just nearly broke or not...

I tie down the helicopter to a floating H pad I created and at full cyclic it picks the pad up way into the air so I have lots of power. Low temps but only seem to be getting around 500 fuel even in my large capacity tank... When I hooked up both my large tanks it still only reads 500 and I have both tanks set to 100% fill in the editor...
So im leaning towards being broke is preventing me puting anymore than 500ish fuel however its really odd because the first tank reads 400 ish while the 2nd tank reads 500ish with the first one disconnected...

So Im trying to sort out if its my fuel flow of cash flow. Not sure. I dont have anymore money and Im saved on this current mission to try to go get a single guy from a bridge but I cant even make it to the main land.

How do I get more money for that vehicle??

[Eagle]

Originally posted by Philonious Rex:

To be clear, I was bringing my jet to failure intentionally to test the problem that Eagle was talking about, as opposed to running at 150 rps intentionally.

Yes "running out of fuel" was one of my guesses so I'm not too surprised, they can get really thirsty especially at higher throttle. And the game is so complex it's easy to miss something like that.

As far as testing goes, I recommend using "Custom" mode Vs Career mode which is basically creative mode, until you have something that works. That way you don't waste money and you can just teleport the vehicle back when it inevitably fails or explodes or catches fire etc.

As for monitoring with Dials / Gauges. I recommend turning your tooltips in the settings from None to Simple or Advanced.
On simple I think you press PgUp to see detailed information, on Advanced it's on by default. This will show you every statistic that is possible to see on a component without having to make dials for each thing. Then you can just make dials for the data you need when you get it working. You'll be an all knowing being.

Making the logic for dials and controls can take a while because the compound components all require custom Logic though it's not complex it is just time consuming to make each of those.

It sounds like you have it mostly figured out, at least it's just a fuel problem.

Just seeing this reply.

Being new to the game I just picked one and wasnt sure which to pick.
I need to learn how to start another career for testing my builds Im pretty sure I am in advanced mode since I need hook ups for everything but I have not seen any diagnostic hints at all Ive been trying to figure out why everyone can see what their engine is doing just by looking at it. I cant see anything which is why im hooking everything up to diagnose issues. Its very time consuming. I just built this heli because the default is just way too small and not enough fuel to get things done without constantly refueling every minute or two. Now I see that this Heli is using just as much fuel faster because its bigger and uses a high power engine.. Ugh.

[Eagle]

I uploaded it so if you guys want to take a whack at it here it is.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2386716718

[Eagle]

Ok I just got done checking every last tank one at a time I deleted some items I had on the heli and H pad and Ive got 5k money now so I should in THEORY have enough fuel to make it to the main land.

My question now is I noted that the moment I throw the breaker my fuel read out zeros.
I assume it because the fuel pumps are slurping that fuel directly into the engine and awaiting it to spool. This now has me puzzled... How can I get a summed read out of the actual real number fuel the engine has if some of the tanks zero out the second the pumps kick on? This could also be why Im getting a read out of only 1000 with 7 tanks.
3 Large 750 Tanks and 4 Medium tanks. at 183 each

If I have only 3 large tanks which is what I originally had and was running out of gas...
How is it that Im only getting a readout of 1000? It could be that I only had enough money to fill a tank and half sure... however It doesnt solve a true fuel readout display If 4 of the medium tanks all zero out the moment the pumps kick on.

Since its a jet engine having a true read out gives me peace of mind because its a gas guzzler... I could I guess somehow get the control panel to work and show all 7 tanks on the control panel but I just wanted to combine them all into one digital display. Im gonna try the mission once more hopefully 5k is enough to pay for the fuel needed to get the mission done.

[pontfogel]

Do you in fact have a generator on your chopper?

[pontfogel]

I downloaded it, but I haven't played this game for months and I'm kinda struggling to make sense of it. You have many dials and buttons with no name so I don't know what they're supposed to do. :)

[pontfogel]

You don't need any fuel pumps. Remove them and save weight. It will also reduce electricity drain.

I recommend simplifying electrics as much as possible. Generator to battery, battery to main breaker. You don't have to do it like that but it sure helps making things more clear.

If I were you I'd remove a bunch of the dials with various engine readouts. Like I said before, except for rps they're mostly eye candy.

Edit: I normally use combustion chamber rps for PID control and so on. That's where you send throttle input anyway.
The values you want are combustion chamber rps and rotor rps. You want to achieve a stable rotor speed. I am not familiar with any changes to rotors but when I last played between 50 and 70 rotor rps was fine, 70 being high and 50 being low.
You want to achieve that rotor speed with as low jet rps as possible really which is why you should use high gearing. Three jets on this chopper seems very excessive. I'd go for one. And normal medium engine will probably give you better fuel economy. You don't really need much power for a helicopter.

Edit 2: Sorry, two engines, not three. You fooled me with the extra intake. :)

Edit 3: I really can't find any generator. Am I just being stupid? Otherwise that's one of your major problems.

[Eagle]

I dont have a generator on it. I just fueled up with 1500 displayed and headed for the main land I got to the beginner outpost about 996 mark flew over the little hospital next to beginner outpost and headed towards the light house when I was just coming into view of the light house it went down again and into the ocean I went with what last displayed was 700 Fuel... It has got to be the power because I was high enough I went for the engine starter with the moonlight over the toggle the toggle was dead and so was the breaker...

Its got to a power issue now. Grr... I didnt add a generator because I know they pull away power from the engine they are also expensive a medium is like 2k and too big to fit on the heli. Unless I ditch some fuel. There is no clutch I really dont want a clutch or gearbox if I dont have to have it cause I dont have much room left Im struggling to find space for small batteries.

So the Control Panel is as follows.

All 4 dial/Switch Displays are dead. They arent working even though I set them up so I only actually have the first far Left 4 dial/switch block hooked up and it doesnt work...
So all of the 4 mini displays do not work.

The Far left light next to pilot on the wall is the E-Beacon for the heli itself. Not on or hooked up since I was trying to fix the engine and Im not in Multiplayer yet so its not needed at the moment.

The Middle of the ceiling panel is the breaker for the Display panel that is also the back lighting for all the instruments.

The digital display in the console front and center is supposed to be for a combined output of all the fuel tanks from a micro controller on the roof just behind the rotor. It has an 8 tank output but Im only using 7 I got the 8 tank originally from Squirrel on youtube.


The all yellow is for the search light at the front of the heli the throttle in the roof top moves a pivot I have the search light attached to.

The dial center in front of the pilot is hooked up to the altimeter yet even with it hooked up to the backlight it doesnt work even with the roof Back light toggled on and and the breaker. That Breaker that is the same color as the Control panels scheme is the breaker for the control panel and with it toggled and the back light button above the pilot toggled on it will light up the panel for night flying.

Theres only one toggle that is hooked up in the control panel its how I was flying at night before I sorted the electrical shortage in the panel. That toggle is while in the pilot seat directly in front of the pilots right arm.

The breaker at the back above the passenger seat is for all of the equipment to charge.
I think thats everything. That stack of dials in front of the passenger was where I was diagnosing engine issues...

I saw none even after going through 700+ fuel tanks on fuel throttle the engine never died on me on the ground. It always dies in flight after Ive made it almost to the coast guard beginner station or the main land itself.

The Blue button in the floor turns on the Large water pump for the water canon at the front. The Toggle in front of the see through screen was to turn on a small camera next to the water canon so you could see what the water canon was hitting..

I deleted the camera to save money so the toggle for the monitor is hooked up but the display screen is dead. There are two far right instruments in front of co pilot seat that are on the main breaker and are dials not hooked up to anything nor is that Toggle in front of the copilot on the far right.

Lastly the Water drop mark on the fuselage is for refilling the water tank in the heli its light blue.

You have a large tank under the nose , 2 large Tanks under the engine. 4 medium tanks bunched up under the back of the heli I only have 2 tanks hooked up in the uploaded version. You can see where I last disconnected the main fuel line marked in the crimson red color of the heli or maroon color. Just delete those red pieces and hook the main line back up that runs from the nose all the way to the back. Jet fuel is the Orange pipes Light blue is the water.

The yellow and or White is power from the rotors.

The Eagle on the nose is back lit and should be connected to the backlight button above the pilot and on the same breaker. I had to split the power to other breakers and batteries when I noticed things were not seeming to get any power.