Mixing diesel and water in tank seems to work!? Need feedback here...

[Frag2000]

Hi guys, I discovered something but I would like to know what is the extend of what I can do with this.

I have a large gargo ship with a bottom diesel tank. The boat hold well but you will understand that while it burn its diesel, it will start to try to capsize. I do understand the concept of ballast but I stumbled on another technique which I am not sure if it will work on the long run.

So here it is:

- I have a large bottom tank filled with diesel
- I have a pump that push water in the same tank, full time.
- So as diesel get burned, it get replaced by water, keeping the boat level.
- I have a fuel filter, with only "Diesel" selected that it going to the engine.

So I am mixing diesel and water inside the same tank, filtered out by a fuel filter going thru the engine. The concept seems to work but it makes me wonder... what is the mechanic behind this? Will the engine die only when the diesel amount will run out? Or there is a calculation made and the diesel will be diluted with water at some point? I tested and it seems to work ...but I am afraid I could miss something.

Also, with this setup, I cannot know how much diesel I have left since the tank is always full.

Thanks

[XLjedi]

Read my associated note on "possible applications"
I also elude to another item... the metered fuel pump

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2196067571

[Frag2000]

Originally posted by XLjedi:

Read my associated note on "possible applications"
I also elude to another item... the metered fuel pump

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2196067571

mmmm quite interesting. Do you know the mechanic behind the clogging? How long it takes for it to happen?

In my testing, the fuel intake (filtered for diesel only) is set at the bottom of the tank. And the water coming in is at the top. I am not even sure it does matter but I set it up this way. I did not see any clogging yet ...but my tank is huge so I did not let it run long enough yet. I did not build a bench like yours for my testing. I will play a bit with yours.

But I am interested in the details around the clogging mechanism.

[XLjedi]

Originally posted by Frag2000:

In my testing, the fuel intake (filtered for diesel only) is set at the bottom of the tank. And the water coming in is at the top. I am not even sure it does matter but I set it up this way. I did not see any clogging yet ...but my tank is huge so I did not let it run long enough yet. I did not build a bench like yours for my testing. I will play a bit with yours.

But I am interested in the details around the clogging mechanism.

I explained the mechanic for how/why it clogs in my narrative. Yours is clogging; you just don't realize it yet because the flow rate is slow on the diesel fuel intake.

It clogs fast... in my example file, just change the anti-filter to miss a fluid.

[Frag2000]

Originally posted by XLjedi:

Originally posted by Frag2000:

In my testing, the fuel intake (filtered for diesel only) is set at the bottom of the tank. And the water coming in is at the top. I am not even sure it does matter but I set it up this way. I did not see any clogging yet ...but my tank is huge so I did not let it run long enough yet. I did not build a bench like yours for my testing. I will play a bit with yours.

But I am interested in the details around the clogging mechanism.

I explained the mechanic for how/why it clogs in my narrative. Yours is clogging; you just don't realize it yet because the flow rate is slow on the diesel fuel intake.

It clogs fast... in my example file, just change the anti-filter to miss a fluid.

You really seem to have played a lot with this. Cant wait to try out your bench later on tonight. Which unfortunately bring another question to you :)

In the case your filtering scenario works perfectly, I no longer need many tanks on my cargo boat. A single huge one would suffice and I would simply manage its content.

BUT ... this is where my question is.

Imagine the biggest tank you can, but only the quarter of it is filled. In Stormworks ... does the center of gravity of that tank will be at the center of the tank or at the bottom? If its at the bottom (like it should be), than a single tank would suffice. If it's in the middle, than we need to keep a multiple tank design.

I am asking since you probably wondered the same thing while experimenting with filtering.

[XLjedi]

Originally posted by Frag2000:

Imagine the biggest tank you can, but only the quarter of it is filled. In Stormworks ... does the center of gravity of that tank will be at the center of the tank or at the bottom? If its at the bottom (like it should be), than a single tank would suffice. If it's in the middle, than we need to keep a multiple tank design.

I am asking since you probably wondered the same thing while experimenting with filtering.

I haven't done any fancy math... but it seems modeled toward the bottom, if not at the bottom. I have observed that a submarine traveling at depth with significant ballast will "swing" or "bank" in turns like a pendulum when only left/right rudder is being applied.

Large tanks tend to be symmetric in the hull for port/starboard. So a single baffle system separating fore/aft storage tanks is probably all that's necessary to keep the ship on even keel from front to back.

Cargo ships using fluid ballast systems might further separate the ballast tanks into port/starboard to manage listing if the load is not evenly distributed, or maybe has a crane in operation and a counter-balance is needed.

So for me... I use a single baffle for large submarines and tankers split into fore/aft sections. I plan to use a Quad-ballast split into fore/aft and port/star for a cargo ship with a loading crane.

[Frag2000]

Originally posted by XLjedi:

Originally posted by Frag2000:

Imagine the biggest tank you can, but only the quarter of it is filled. In Stormworks ... does the center of gravity of that tank will be at the center of the tank or at the bottom? If its at the bottom (like it should be), than a single tank would suffice. If it's in the middle, than we need to keep a multiple tank design.

I am asking since you probably wondered the same thing while experimenting with filtering.

I haven't done any fancy math... but it seems modeled toward the bottom, if not at the bottom. I have observed that a submarine traveling at depth with significant ballast will "swing" or "bank" in turns like a pendulum when only left/right rudder is being applied.

Large tanks tend to be symmetric in the hull for port/starboard. So a single baffle system separating fore/aft storage tanks is probably all that's necessary to keep the ship on even keel from front to back.

Cargo ships using fluid ballast systems might further separate the ballast tanks into port/starboard to manage listing if the load is not evenly distributed, or maybe has a crane in operation and a counter-balance is needed.

So for me... I use a single baffle for large submarines and tankers split into fore/aft sections. I plan to use a Quad-ballast split into fore/aft and port/star for a cargo ship with a loading crane.

Ok I played around with this and your 2 filters technique works perfectly. That completely changed the design of my cargo ship. It is now WAY simpler and stable. Love this.

Now just need to figure out how to calculate consumption to write out a microcontroller that will approximate the diesel level in the tank. If you know how hint me here!

Thanks for the help XLJedi. YOu made my night. I owe you a beer.

[XLjedi]

Originally posted by Frag2000:

Now just need to figure out how to calculate consumption to write out a microcontroller that will approximate the diesel level in the tank. If you know how hint me here!

Thanks for the help XLJedi. YOu made my night. I owe you a beer.

The hint is... just use a small metering chamber to filter a measured amount of filtered fluid. When the chamber is full, and there is enough room in your fuel tank, empty the chamber into your fuel tank. Each time you empty the chamber, you know how much of a fluid was extracted from the mixed quantity.

If you know how much of a specific fluid you added to a mixing tank. You should be able to subtract small metered amounts that you extract from the tank, and determine how much of a specific mixed-in fluid is left.

Somewhat of a challenge is... there is a variable amount of fluid that transfers due to the attached pipes/pumps/filters/valves, etc. You have to test a bit to see how much in addition to the chamber quantity gets transferred each time you empty the chamber.

[Frag2000]

Originally posted by XLjedi:

Originally posted by Frag2000:

Now just need to figure out how to calculate consumption to write out a microcontroller that will approximate the diesel level in the tank. If you know how hint me here!

Thanks for the help XLJedi. YOu made my night. I owe you a beer.

The hint is... just use a small metering chamber to pump a measured amount of filtered fluid to fill the chamber. Each time you empty the chamber, you know how much of a fluid was extracted from a mixed quantity.

If you know how much of a specific fluid you added to a mixing tank. You should be able to subtract small metered amounts that you extract from the tank, and determine how much of a specific mixed-in fluid is left.

Not a bad idea at all. Let's say I have a tank mixed of diesel and water. I could burn the diesel and return the water to the tank. When the tank is 100 litres shorter in volume, I do know that those 100 litres are burned diesel, which I can keep as a value in a microcontroler. Than I fill it back up with water. I guess that at this point I could have an error with the amount of liquids that are in the pipes ... but I get the idea. I will figure it out.

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

Fun things you don't know: You can also pass a fluid through the power-pipe, and you won't have to filter that one at all.

[Frag2000]

I was finally able to do a small efficient 2 little tanks filtering system that connect to the huge mixed fluid cargo tank. They take for input mixed fuel and output pure diesel, returning the balance to the main cargo tank.The transfer between the 2 little filtering tank is measured so I keep a very precise fuel level gauge. I am quite satisfied with this!

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

Fun things you don't know: You can also pass a fluid through the power-pipe, and you won't have to filter that one at all.

Power pipe?

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

The pipe that you put power through. Many of my craft utilize that trick.

[Frag2000]

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

The pipe that you put power through. Many of my craft utilize that trick.

Could you give a small example? I do not see how yo could mix then engine output with fuel? Just in you own words quickly. I am curious :)

[XLjedi]

Ya know the pipes that you connect power from engine to propellers?

I think he just means if you run a T pipe thru those, there's a glitch that doesn't require a filter to pull fuel out of a mixed tank. Sounds interesting... but could be patched away. I use a few tricks like these myself, but the one's I employ are typically because I have no other option. This time it seems we have a working solution within the normal game parameters. But sure, worth tinkering wtih.

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

XLJedi is right here, but i'm not so sure it's a glitch, it's just something that's counter-intuitive.

Since power travels through pipes, you can put any single liquid through it without using filters (since power isn't a liquid). I often do this with either fuel or exhaust when i have a relatively tight engine compartment. Some real-life drives do actually do this, but rather it's oil that's looped through it from the engine to keep everything nice and smooth.

On that note, some real life engines also cool themselves with their own propellant.

[XLjedi]

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

XLJedi is right here, but i'm not so sure it's a glitch, it's just something that's counter-intuitive.

Since power travels through pipes, you can put any single liquid through it without using filters (since power isn't a liquid). I often do this with either fuel or exhaust when i have a relatively tight engine compartment. Some real-life drives do actually do this, but rather it's oil that's looped through it from the engine to keep everything nice and smooth.

On that note, some real life engines also cool themselves with their own propellant.

But can you run a fuel/water mix through it and it comes out fuel only?