Fluid pumps and engines

[Benthedaddy]

I’m building a huge base with large fuel storage and wondering if there’s any benefit to fuel pumps into engines? Or are they only useful for filling and emptying containers?

[SpannerMonkey]

Hi fuel pumps benefit depends purely on situation, if you've got a decent amount of space, especially vertically between tank and engine it's a good idea, though the engine info will tell you if a pump is needed or not, fuel supply showing as constantly negative is likely to shave a few nths of the engine performance.

[Hecatia Lapislazuli]

Fluid pumps are really only needed if you need to move a fluid vertically about 10 meters (assuming no horizontal pipe) , other then that the engine shouldn't have an issue pulling fuel into it by itself.

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

Originally posted by Hecatia Lapislazuli:

Fluid pumps are really only needed if you need to move a fluid vertically about 10 meters (assuming no horizontal pipe)

That's... really not even close to true. 5 tiles up intake of coolant to an engine, the most common use for a the water intake, won't supply a medium engine enough coolant unless pressurized with a pump.

Please test claims before claiming things.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

That's... really not even close to true. 5 tiles up intake of coolant to an engine, the most common use for a the water intake, won't supply a medium engine enough coolant unless pressurized with a pump.

Please test claims before claiming things.

Weird.
Just tested all 3 diesel engines, no load, with load (downward facing large ducted fan), at 20RPS and a single small radiator per engine, 10 straight pipes below the respective coolant connections (2.5m), cooling just fine, capping out at ~112.5°, so plenty of cooling without pumps.

Switching the small radiators with 1x3x1 volume custom water tanks (46.875l each), no pumps, 10 straight pipes below also provided plenty of cooling, again no difference between load or no load at 20RPS.
With this setup temperature capped between 38° and 44° depending on engine size for some reason.

Unless I'm missing something you don't even need pumps for coolants, even with coolant source 10 blocks below the coolant connections of the engine.

One might think radiators/heat sinks using specific coolants might do a better job keeping an engine cool than using regular water.

[Siegfried67]

Originally posted by GrumpyOldMan:

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

That's... really not even close to true. 5 tiles up intake of coolant to an engine, the most common use for a the water intake, won't supply a medium engine enough coolant unless pressurized with a pump.

Please test claims before claiming things.

Weird.
Just tested all 3 diesel engines, no load, with load (downward facing large ducted fan), at 20RPS and a single small radiator per engine, 10 straight pipes below the respective coolant connections (2.5m), cooling just fine, capping out at ~112.5°, so plenty of cooling without pumps.

Switching the small radiators with 1x3x1 volume custom water tanks (46.875l each), no pumps, 10 straight pipes below also provided plenty of cooling, again no difference between load or no load at 20RPS.
With this setup temperature capped between 38° and 44° depending on engine size for some reason.

Unless I'm missing something you don't even need pumps for coolants, even with coolant source 10 blocks below the coolant connections of the engine.

One might think radiators/heat sinks using specific coolants might do a better job keeping an engine cool than using regular water.

You're testing the temperature difference between load/no load. Not at all what we're talking about. Try the same setup, same load, but with/without pumps.

Edit:
Tested with medium engine, a medium gen as load, rps capped at 20, small radiator 12 blocks below the engine. Without pumps, temp goes up to 110, with pumps it goes up to 107.
Tiny difference, but it might change depending on the setup.
I personnaly never use pumps for coolant tbh, but there is definitely a difference.

Edit 2: same test same setup but radiator 12 block above the engines, temps i got : 107.6 with, 109.4 without pumps

Edit 3: just to be sure, did it again with 16 blocks... engienes run 0.5 degrees cooler for some reason.

Edit 4 : testing with a water tank 14 blocks below the engine, same engine setup: with pumps, temp rises to 18.8, without pumps 53.4. There's a massive improvement when using water overall, even more with pumps.

Edit 5: Exact same setup, bu reduced the height difference to 3 blocks. With pumps, temp rises to 23.6, and 30.2 without pumps. It seems that pipes dissipate some heat too...

My Conclusions: pumps are useless when using radiators, but you should use water anyways, where pumps can massively improve your cooling.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally posted by Siegfried67:

You're testing the temperature difference between load/no load. Not at all what we're talking about. Try the same setup, same load, but with/without pumps.

My testing was related to Ra-Ra-Rasputins claim that pumps are mandatory for (medium engine) cooling with a Z difference of 5 blocks, as can be seen in his quote in my post.
Testing with/without load was to make sure load doesn't affect temperature increase and was not the sole point of the test, just another parameter.

Hence I tested radiators and water cooling without pumps at a Z difference of 10.

Of course pumps, depending on circumstance, improve cooling, often by a lot. Didn't say otherwise.
As of now engine temperatures don't affect engine performance in any way, all that counts is to stay below 120°, which a single radiator does perfectly fine, even at a Z difference of 10.

[Benthedaddy]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2181271496 While were on the subject of cooling. I built a chinook that can easily lift ships. It has 4 medium engines and to cool them it’s got 12 radiators.
Wondering how the rads function? Do the pipes already contain enough fluid to function or do I need to add water to the radiator system? Can you mix radiator and fluid cooling? It stays at a max 95 degrees currently.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2181274938

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally posted by Benthedaddy:

While were on the subject of cooling. I built a chinook that can easily lift ships. It has 4 medium engines and to cool them it’s got 12 radiators.
Wondering how the rads function? Do the pipes already contain enough fluid to function or do I need to add water to the radiator system? It stays at a max 95 degrees currently.

12 radiators? Ouch.

Engines and radiators come "pre-filled" with fluid, as of now a single custom water tank with 1x3x1 interior volume will outperform radiators.

What's your RPS at? Try gearing the engine so it performes well at 7.5RPS to maximize fuel efficiency and bring down heat generation a lot.

You can also pump fuel through the engines as coolant to circumvent having to build another fluid tank for water coolant, though that comes with its own downsides. Like this: Fluid tank -> engine coolant input - engine coolant output -> engine fuel input.
Might be the best solution, especially if you keep the engines around 7.5RPS.

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

I should have specified, while the effect is diminutive with radiators (though rises with additional radiators) the effect is greatest when it is drawing from a reservoir (or the ocean directly).

Comparably you can ruin your engine cooling by having a pump also exist on the output hose unless strictly necessary. Try an engine sitting at the bottom of a basic hull where the intake and output of the cooling both have pumps, then try again with the output pump replaced with pure pipes.

The difference is there because the engine seemingly wants to keep a set amount of coolant in it at all times, and it outputs heated coolant. However, if you actively drain the engine, even if you supply it with the same(ish) amount, the cooling is significantly diminished.

[Benthedaddy]

Yeah 12 rads seemed a lot 😂 Only been playing a week or so, still trying to figure a few things out. It’s very different to FTD.
It’s currently running at 25 rps. I messed with gearing a lot but changing this from its current 2:1 2:1 lowers the weight it can lift.

[Benthedaddy]

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

I should have specified, while the effect is diminutive with radiators (though rises with additional radiators) the effect is greatest when it is drawing from a reservoir (or the ocean directly).

Comparably you can ruin your engine cooling by having a pump also exist on the output hose unless strictly necessary. Try an engine sitting at the bottom of a basic hull where the intake and output of the cooling both have pumps, then try again with the output pump replaced with pure pipes.

The difference is there because the engine seemingly wants to keep a set amount of coolant in it at all times, and it outputs heated coolant. However, if you actively drain the engine, even if you supply it with the same(ish) amount, the cooling is significantly diminished.

Interesting 🤔 will have to remember that. Pump coolant in but not out 👍

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally posted by Benthedaddy:

Interesting 🤔 will have to remember that. Pump coolant in but not out 👍

Well you CAN have a pump draining the coolant, as long as it's draining slower than the input pump is filling it up, achievable by using the power slider using the select tool on the pump.
At 100% you get 150l/s best case scenario.

Good points by Ra-Ra-Rasputin otherwise, internal volume for coolant sure is something to consider.

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

It also varies based on setup, as seen here:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2184187312

Particularly notice the difference between the second leftmost and the middle engine. In pump setups they are identical, but the middle engine runs much, much cooler.

The back/forth pump in this setup is the most efficient, but it is not so if you're in a boat, because due to waves and whatnot, any gap in the waves will gush out the coolant without taking in any to replace it.

[Stinger]

Originally posted by Ra-Ra-Rasputin:

won't supply a medium engine enough coolant

Define "enough". Simply shoving about 10 pipe pieces and a port into the water, no pumps other than the engine's own internal pump, has always been plenty to keep my engines icy-cold; no higher than 40 celsius even as I throw the RPS up to obnoxiously high values.

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

Originally posted by StingerTheRaven:

Define "enough". Simply shoving about 10 pipe pieces and a port into the water, no pumps other than the engine's own internal pump, has always been plenty to keep my engines icy-cold; no higher than 40 celsius even as I throw the RPS up to obnoxiously high values.

Enough to fully meet its need for coolant. If the pipe is particularly long (front of a speedboat with the intake at the back) regardless of limited vertical travel you'll still need/want it.