Magic and pyromancy are not “easy mods”, but part of the greater scheme of things

[QuickSilver]

Sometimes I read forums and see magic, pyromancy, or miracles in Dark Souls referred to as “gameplay for the weak”. Like, real players take a sword, go in your face, get hurt and parry. But I strongly disagree with that.

Magic in Souls is not a way to “simplify” the game, it's a different playthrough style conceived by Miyazaki himself. And by cutting it out, you're giving up a huge chunk of content: cast system, intelligence or faith boosting, unique loot, tactics and animations, which the developers have designed with the same care as swords or shields.

Yes, magic can make some things easier - just like any other build when properly tuned. But it requires no less skill: positioning, competent choice of spells, timing, resource management. Try to play as a pure mage in DS1 or a caster in DS3 in PvP and you'll see that the “isi mod” turns into a dance with death, where one miss = death.

The point of Souls is the variety of paths. Someone defeats Sif with a two-handed sword, someone else pelt him with chaos fireballs. That doesn't mean anyone is inferior, it means everyone has their own path through the Darkness.

So mages, pyromancers, clerics - you're not weaker. You've just chosen a different style. And that, in my opinion, is the beauty of Souls.

[QuickSilver]

I'm not defending mages, nor am I one. just my thoughts and opinion, which may not be the same as yours.

[Madao]

cool story bro

[SlusheeWolf2 (jRPG Wolf)]

I'm a Knight in the game that knows only a few spells because my INT is low (it's about 13). The Soul Arrow spell really helps with the BS mosquito spawns in Blighttown, esp in Upper Blighttown where they like to clip through the floor and you can't hit them with Sword and Board.

[Crypto Gamer]

Firestorm with good RNG and dark bead with spell dmg casting gear can often 1-2 shot bosses.

With hyper mode, you can 1-shot most bosses on higher NG cycles and end the fight in sub 5 seconds.

Even a level 1 pyromancer with FU upgraded gloves and spell dmg boosting gear can deal very high dmg on NG+6.

Also, in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1, spells still do not cost any stamina, and you even regain stamina during casting.

Magic is much more balanced in DS2 and especially 3.

Faith/Cleric in DS1 are not as powerful. Lighting spells deal with strong damage but have few casts and very slow cast time.

I have a char currently on NG+6, and he is primarily a dex int build. I do not even use Dark Bead, as I consider it game-breaking in PVE, as it deletes most PVE foes in 1 shot with very fast cast time.

That said, even melee can benefit from low int or faith.

Weapon magic buff or even utility spells like healing, light, repair can be used to save on resources.

Power within is likely useful for ANY build in the game, even for melee.

Game has many ways to play, still on NG, you can have Havel or a highly upgraded Heavy armor with high Poise+20, Highly Upgraded Estus and high Poise dmg weapon like a Zweihander stand in 1 spot, hit, hit,estus drink and poise tank bosses dmg and win not even moving.

This works againts many bosses on NG.

So some ways to play require much less skill.

That said it is up to the player how they want to play.

[QuickSilver]

Originally posted by Madao:

cool story bro

was that sarcasm?

[Senki]

while I don't think people should avoid enjoying whatever build they like just for some fake ''skilled gamer'' cred, magic absolutely does make these games significantly easier

you are both safer and deal way more damage than non-magic builds

[AarkNoa]

Theoretically this game is easy no matter what build you use, unless you're going for a meme build of course.

People saying that pyromancy and sorcery are easy mode, in my opinion just derives from the fact that it's very easy to get good at firing off spells at enemies. You just need to pump everything in intelligence, equip the spell and your done.

While on the other hand a big bonk build is just as easy if not easier than sorceries, but you'll have to understand how poise works for you and enemies and understand the upgrade paths of weapons and understand exactly how much equip load you can have to still not fat roll. Mechanics that Dark Souls does not really explain to you at all unless you're really into reading loads and loads of item descriptions, or read the wiki beforehand.

When I tried Dark Souls for the first time I didn't understand a thing and it threw me off multiple times, then my friend, who persuaded me to play the series in the first place advised me to try magic for a change and magic clicked with me immediately.

[brewedjuice]

the extra range and extremely high damage and stunlock potential, especially in this game, make them EXTREMELY strong options. thus "the easy mode". anyone can get a pyro flame, rush combustion, and just win. thats not to say there cant be, or arent skilled ways to play magic, just that its much easier and usually involves less rolling in circles than casually building an op melee build like giant dad, and can start snowballing faster. its to the point the sl1 playthroughs have to go out of their way *not* to abuse pyromancy, because the SL 1 character is Pyromancer, and the ez strat is "just level the pyro flame instead of yourself and you're just as strong as a normally built character." its possible, and rather easy once you know how, to kill most bosses including artorias with a single cast of chaos firestorm. but one could just rush the stone armor and cheese the game right away via poise and melee too so...... who cares. i will say succeeding with magic is easier. maybe like a lower entry level. not to say someone cant be a skilled mage, but its easier to win with magic without that skill too imo. pretty easy to spam combustion against ornstein, then spam greater combustion against super smough and stunlock him. (weak to fire). ironically the hard part is quaelog since all your damage is fire and shes immune. (just buy a few sorceries.)

hell with a decent build, a bow can make the game easy. ds1 is pretty easy once you have a bit of knowledge.

[Mytrnz]

Ring of fog and hidden body r great ds 1 tools. I never got art single shot with choas storm had to follow with great choas fireball. Even with +5 glove. U tuber demo took more than 1 shot. I definitely like to see that. Where is it on u tube? Using ROG in Sens the snakes never move. Sorcery distance shots r killers.

[brewedjuice]

Originally posted by Mytrnz:

Ring of fog and hidden body r great ds 1 tools. I never got art single shot with choas storm had to follow with great choas fireball. Even with +5 glove. U tuber demo took more than 1 shot. I definitely like to see that. Where is it on u tube? Using ROG in Sens the snakes never move. Sorcery distance shots r killers.

ahh my bad memory is tricking me. i thought i rememberd ymfah doing only 1 full cast, but took him a few combusts after. the sanctuary guardian was 1 cast tho, probably bigger hitbox for more contacts.

but was only power within, not hypermode with rtsr too so not sure how much difference it makes.

[Mandalorian Deathknight]

Originally posted by Mytrnz:

Ring of fog and hidden body r great ds 1 tools. I never got art single shot with choas storm had to follow with great choas fireball. Even with +5 glove. U tuber demo took more than 1 shot. I definitely like to see that. Where is it on u tube? Using ROG in Sens the snakes never move. Sorcery distance shots r killers.

use that rings on O&S and watch the bosses go haywire lol

[gh0stwizard]

In DS1, magic and pyromancies are easy modes with caveats. Unlike other souls like from Fromsoftware (next just games), catalysts do not requiring any upgrades. Instead there is a quest line for sorcery spells. If you fail it, you lost everything. Unlike any other games, the game is extremely well balanced for sorcerer: each spell hit is counted, up to NG+6. Each damage boosting item of spells is counted too (dragon rings + dusk helmet).

Unlike other games, pyromancy is well balanced only in DS1. Starting from DS2 and upward, including Elden Ring, pyromancy is totaly ruined. First, combustion spell has been ruined (attack speed is slower than 2h zwei) in DS2. Starting from DS3, almost all pyromancy spells do require BOTH stats: INT and FTH, and on top of this, consumes TONES of stamina. Considering the fact, that DS3 is only game, which has SEPARATED stats for encumbrance and stamina, this issue is raised up to maximum level. And on very top of the hill, in DS3, pyromancy damage does not scales well with INT and FTH - mid levels are only option to play as pyromancer with some +/- good satisfaction.

Unlike other games, DS1 is only game where WoTG is really working combat spell for clerics. In all other games, WoTG was COMPLETELY ruined by Fromsoftware. In Elder Ring you don't need WoTG due its alternative version as a weapon art (and in common, weapon arts in ER are more funny and powerfull than just WoTG).

Unlike other games, DS1 version of super duper lightning spear is THE ONLY lightning spell which KNOCKDOWN most enemies. If you did not try it yet - try it and compare with other games as pure cleric - you will understand everything, your eyes will be crystal clear.

Unlike other games, DS1 is the only game, where you have to collect copies of spells to increase spell count. And unlike other games, pyromancy of DS1 is the most costly, because you have to upgrade pyromancy flame to get maximum damage. It costs roughly 45 levels. If you don't know how to farm such ammount of souls, you will never understand pyromancy as easy mode.

[Crypto Gamer]

In DES and likely DS1 you can also go hyper mode get thief ring/ring of fog.

Use the strongest dmg bow+max upgrade and strongest dmg arrow and you can likely 1-2 hit kill most basic foes beyond their inital aggro range and kill them 1 by 1.

So game has many inbuilt easy modes.

Ring of fog and the ring that disables your movement sound together means you can run past most PVE enemies in this game and make backstabs much easier.

Can be useful on NG+ cycles if you primary want to run past foes.

Game has many playstyles and you can use or not use certain tools to make the game harder,easier.

[CB]

so i think in order to even start with this discussion we need a good definition of what constitutes an 'easy mode' in a game like this, in a game where it hands you infinite retries anyway so you can actually always still win if you keep trying and keep trying different things.

i think to define an easy mode here we need to consider what strategies allow players to engage with the game the least and still win. for example: 50 vit lets you laugh off attacks from most of the pve in this game, and as you get armor upgrades and weapon upgrades too the slider keeps moving to the side where the player can just walk into the boss, swing, and still win.

casters have it similar; the typical caster build is made to take chunks of health off of bosses. it's made so that you only need to get a cast off a handful of times and have it land and you've won. it enables a playstyle where you never really have to learn anything; you just retry and hope the rng has enough pity this time. basically, the idea is you get as much player power as possible so you have to play the game as little as possible.

this is assuming, of course, that the caster is playing solo, and i just don't see it all that often. casters almost universally have phantoms with them so they actually get to cast. be it friends, randoms from summon signs, or solaire.