Fire - Why Does It Harm The Player Character? (Lore Question)

[ChrisPharmD]

TL;DR Version: Why does fire harm the player character when they drink fire to heal?

-------------------
Long Version:

Please forgive me. My knowledge of lore is iffy at best.

Recently, I realized that Estus was most likely bottled fire, which admittedly blew my mind. Though, since I've been playing Soulsborne games for years, I'm surprised I never realized that before.

That said, now I'm curious as to why fire in general harms the player character. The Chosen Undead. It makes even less sense for Dark Souls 3 since you're literally embered.

I attempted to Google this, and I wasn't satisfied with the answers. One person stated that in real life, humans are made up of mostly water but water can kill us. Computers are electronics, but electricity can kill computers, too.

The problem I have with that answer is that we know the mechanisms of what exactly causes the harm for IRL situations.

---------------------

My best explanation from what I know about Dark Souls is that perhaps bonfires are made up of the very First Flame. And when you drink the Estus, you're drinking of the First Flame rather than just random fire. But though the First Flame brings life, it's not just fire. It must be a divine entity, whereas when the player character comes into contact with general fire, it causes damage instead.

I'm curious to know your thoughts.

[Amygdala]

Flame sorceries probably couldn't harm humans, but when the Witch tried to copy the First Flame and created the Chaos and demons, those pyromancies aren't technically from the First Flame so can harm people

As for ordinary fire, it's probably just again because it's not from the First Flame

[Dexter]

Learn about pyramancies I ain't gonna butcher the lore but seriously read it

and remember, after all it is just a game
there is no THE chosen undead, there are thousands if not more, as many as there are players that killed Gwyn

[Call Sign: Raven]

Player = undead.
Undead are susceptible to fire.
Even in human form, humans are fleshy and get hurt by fire.

That being said, I highly doubt that the substance inside the Estus Flask is fire. I know it's a game, so nothing really has to make sense because they are making it up, but that really wouldn't make sense XD

Could be a play on an old boys name, which is Estus, and could also be a play on words with Estrus, both have connotations of heat, in Latin.

[The Great Brambino]

Eh I don't think estus is bottled fire, but what do I know. Like Amygdala said though, there are several different kinds of fire in the souls games.

[D-Black Catto]

estus is vodka, hence why vodka is called "fire water"

[Amygdala]

Originally posted by Kuro Neko:

estus is vodka, hence why vodka is called "fire water"

That's whiskey

[Videogame Jukebox]

Originally posted by Amygdala:

Originally posted by Kuro Neko:

estus is vodka, hence why vodka is called "fire water"

That's whiskey :updatejournal:

Or Alcohol to the Native Americans.

[Tarik Torgaddon]

Originally posted by Harrison Ford:

Player = undead.
Undead are susceptible to fire.
Even in human form, humans are fleshy and get hurt by fire.

That being said, I highly doubt that the substance inside the Estus Flask is fire. I know it's a game, so nothing really has to make sense because they are making it up, but that really wouldn't make sense XD

Could be a play on an old boys name, which is Estus, and could also be a play on words with Estrus, both have connotations of heat, in Latin.

This is a Fromsoftware game. There is mostly always an explaination for these things. You just have to look deeper. Then there are things like your endless inventory, which isn't really logical, but simply convenient. Overall this game does a very good job at making everything adhere to its own in-universe rules. A pretty realistic fantasy game, that doesn't go as far with the realism as a George R.R. Martin book.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by Paul Atreides:

Originally posted by Harrison Ford:

Player = undead.
Undead are susceptible to fire.
Even in human form, humans are fleshy and get hurt by fire.

That being said, I highly doubt that the substance inside the Estus Flask is fire. I know it's a game, so nothing really has to make sense because they are making it up, but that really wouldn't make sense XD

Could be a play on an old boys name, which is Estus, and could also be a play on words with Estrus, both have connotations of heat, in Latin.

This is a Fromsoftware game. There is mostly always an explaination for these things. You just have to look deeper. Then there are things like your endless inventory, which isn't really logical, but simply convenient. Overall this game does a very good job at making everything adhere to its own in-universe rules. A pretty realistic fantasy game, that doesn't go as far with the realism as a George R.R. Martin book.

There are TONS of things left unexplained in Dark Souls, not sure where you're getting that.

Estus is one of them, it's left unexplained across all three games.

Why do the ancients exist?

Who is the furtive pygmy?

Where did the first flame come from?

There's little to no realism in the game, at least be honest with yourself.

There are tons of fans that TRY to explain, but generally they fall short.

[MOSLEY]

Estus means "heat" or "fire" in Latin. The estus flask is described as being an emerald green flask, it's orange because we fill it with the fire of a bonfire. I don't think it's ever explained how we are able to consume the fire from an estus flask, rather than being consumed (burned) by it. This is especially strange given that bonfires appear to be the eternally burning remains of undead.

[The Godslain]

You're mostly water.
You can drown.

[ChrisPharmD]

Originally posted by The Godslain:

You're mostly water.
You can drown.

But you don't drown in water simply by touching water.

[sekai]

Estus is not bottled fire. It's bottled ASH.

By "drinking" estus, what you're actually doing is cannibalising the ashen remains of fellow undeads. You just refill the bottle at the bonfire by filling in all the ash there.

Bonfires are lit from the remains of undeads that you can physically confirm by looking at the model of the bonfire, as well as Homeward Bone's nature and item description implying such a connection.

Bonfires likely burn on the residual humanity and souls of the undead bones acting as fuels, which is weak given the subject is often already long since hollowed, and hence also why it gets stronger when you feed your own humanity and souls into it (also despite lighting bonfire for the very first time does not consume any humanity, it is implied you're still feeding humanity in order to "wake" the fire from its initial state).

Thus while it's never explained how the bonfire never runs out of bones to burn, it can be inferred that your player character routinely gathers up the undead they have slained and throw them into the fire to feed it. This would explain why bonfires are weak until you came along to wake it and it hasn't died out since, as the last guy there was probably many years ago and you just came along and become the new pseudo fire keeper of the bonfire who tend it with a supply of undead corpses and your own soul/humanity.

Players respawning at or being healed at lit bonfires implied to take time to complete (while eating ash heals instantly), players in Dark Souls 3 who are undeads who have long perished but forced back to life who are being made of ash, would similarly point to the ash being the factors of healing than it is the fire.

The fire isn't any different than other fires, in that it is a combustion process that consumes fuels and frees energies in the forms of heat. A fire that consumes souls may be a different level, but it's still fire. It can be used creatively, but you're still playing with fire, which can potentially hurt you and others. This can't be more evident than the pyromancy spell Power Within that directly tempers one's body metaphorically as if it were a stoking a fire, which proves to be a suicidal double-edged sword.

[sekai]

Originally posted by Harrison Ford:

There are TONS of things left unexplained in Dark Souls, not sure where you're getting that.

Estus is one of them, it's left unexplained across all three games.

Why do the ancients exist?

Who is the furtive pygmy?

Where did the first flame come from?

There's little to no realism in the game, at least be honest with yourself.

There are tons of fans that TRY to explain, but generally they fall short.

Estus has been implied to be the ash of undead remains burned in bonfire that the player cannibalise to regain HP. I went into more details in my previous post.

The ancients are basically no different from humans. They are all creatures that somehow arose around (from dirt? that's where it's actually unexplained. but then again, creation myths are all like that) the First Flame and claimed some cinders of it, giving them identity and power. Outside of potentially each ancient probably possessing a stronger soul than humans on average and that humans have what's basically a second soul ie the Dark Soul as per their fellowship of the Furtive Pygmy, but overall they are all of similar make of humans, as beings that just "came" around the fire and presumably from the dirt. The arbitrary distinction is probably just there to indicate the gods' arrogance, and perhaps a reference to Ancient Greek myths where "Titans" and "Gods" are literally the same thing but Zeus set the distinction to discredit the gods before him and legitmatise his reign (Gwyn is also partially inspired by Zeus in many ways, most prominently his lightning spear and being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥). Hell, we could even go 1 step further from this and say that humans, ancients, and Everlasting Dragons were all of the same make, as beings of ash and dirt and that before "fire came disparity" everyone was just like the dragons, elemental, unfazed, and eternal; and it was only taking in the fire where identity became a thing along with lifespan and whatnot (which the dragons did not). And so Gwyn killed off the dragons Zeus style with the Titans, but eons later is mad that fire eventually fades and they're all returning back to being of ash and dirt with minds lost hence the "curse of the undead" surfaces at the end of the Age of Fire when it was just returning to the primordial order before the fire. ♥♥♥♥ my brain is so big right now!

Furtive Pygmy as the ancient who found the weak but infinitely duplicating Dark Souls, was intentionally left out of the story because that's kinda the point, that unlike the gods that each possess incredible powers and was recognised by their individual name whereas humans are each weak but together we grow collectively with no limit in sight. Furtive Pygmy was never revealed not because of an oversight, but because who they were never mattered and was at the core of a main theme of the game.

The flame is the game's metaphor for the big bang, if you haven't noticed. Even if there's nothing, literally nothing, something will eventually happen come trillion of trillion of eons, due to the sheer fact nothing's possibility is dead 0 thus much like the big bang, the first flame was inevitable. And once something happens for the very first time, cycle is introduced, hence "fire, came disparity". Also, since fire will inevitably return, it also touches on the concept of the "eternal return", much like how it is theorised that universe occurs and unmakes itself in a galactic cycle of astronomical eons.

......

This level of mythological storytelling is similar to how, for whatever reason, the Dark Souls' world actually stacks itself in like a figurative sense. This is demonstrated how you can go to the "old world" (now Ashe Lake) by heading all the way down from your current world in Dark Souls 1 and reach Ash Lake, confirming Gwyn LITERALLY built a new world on top of the old world, which is like Hindu mythology level of worldview. (Also Ash Lake being filled with water as opposed to fog is also a direct reference and and effect of Sisters of Izalith burning down much of the old world, presumably causing a giant rain in the aftermath clearing the fog and forming the endless ocean)

This phenomenon where eras stack on top of each other is again shown in Dark Souls 3, though more extreme in many ways.

......
......
......

Dark Souls' worldbuilding is obviously, incredibly unrealistic and it's not like it ever tried to be realistic when you'd figured out what you're getting into within 3 seconds of the cinematic of the very first game. But for the very most part it's internally consistent with its mythological narrative and worldbuilding, so much so it even matches almost perfectly with the gameplay components, which most games struggles to even attempt.

As the reader/player/audience of Dark Souls, you know that you're in it for the epic like the Epic of Gilgamesh, complete with its unique metaphorical worldview and themes that refers to material concepts, items, or events, than it is about concrete portrayal of realism.

Its sheer narrative scale and scope provides a incredible sense of scale and wonder (or dread) while addressing relevant messages creatively through the vehicles of fiction and mystical, as a modern epic worthy to be remembered for the days to come.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by SEKAI (世界):

Originally posted by Harrison Ford:

There are TONS of things left unexplained in Dark Souls, not sure where you're getting that.

Estus is one of them, it's left unexplained across all three games.

Why do the ancients exist?

Who is the furtive pygmy?

Where did the first flame come from?

There's little to no realism in the game, at least be honest with yourself.

There are tons of fans that TRY to explain, but generally they fall short.

Estus has been implied to be the ash of undead remains burned in bonfire that the player cannibalise to regain HP. I went into more details in my previous post.

The ancients are basically no different from humans. They are all creatures that somehow arose around (from dirt? that's where it's actually unexplained. but then again, creation myths are all like that) the First Flame and claimed some cinders of it, giving them identity and power. Outside of potentially each ancient probably possessing a stronger soul than humans on average and that humans have what's basically a second soul ie the Dark Soul as per their fellowship of the Furtive Pygmy, but overall they are all of similar make of humans, as beings that just "came" around the fire and presumably from the dirt. The arbitrary distinction is probably just there to indicate the gods' arrogance, and perhaps a reference to Ancient Greek myths where "Titans" and "Gods" are literally the same thing but Zeus set the distinction to discredit the gods before him and legitmatise his reign (Gwyn is also partially inspired by Zeus in many ways, most prominently his lightning spear and being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥). Hell, we could even go 1 step further from this and say that humans, ancients, and Everlasting Dragons were all of the same make, as beings of ash and dirt and that before "fire came disparity" everyone was just like the dragons, elemental, unfazed, and eternal; and it was only taking in the fire where identity became a thing along with lifespan and whatnot (which the dragons did not). And so Gwyn killed off the dragons Zeus style with the Titans, but eons later is mad that fire eventually fades and they're all returning back to being of ash and dirt with minds lost hence the "curse of the undead" surfaces at the end of the Age of Fire when it was just returning to the primordial order before the fire. ♥♥♥♥ my brain is so big right now!

Furtive Pygmy as the ancient who found the weak but infinitely duplicating Dark Souls, was intentionally left out of the story because that's kinda the point, that unlike the gods that each possess incredible powers and was recognised by their individual name whereas humans are each weak but together we grow collectively with no limit in sight. Furtive Pygmy was never revealed not because of an oversight, but because who they were never mattered and was at the core of a main theme of the game.

The flame is the game's metaphor for the big bang, if you haven't noticed. Even if there's nothing, literally nothing, something will eventually happen come trillion of trillion of eons, due to the sheer fact nothing's possibility is dead 0 thus much like the big bang, the first flame was inevitable. And once something happens for the very first time, cycle is introduced, hence "fire, came disparity". Also, since fire will inevitably return, it also touches on the concept of the "eternal return", much like how it is theorised that universe occurs and unmakes itself in a galactic cycle of astronomical eons.

......

This level of mythological storytelling is similar to how, for whatever reason, the Dark Souls' world actually stacks itself in like a figurative sense. This is demonstrated how you can go to the "old world" (now Ashe Lake) by heading all the way down from your current world in Dark Souls 1 and reach Ash Lake, confirming Gwyn LITERALLY built a new world on top of the old world, which is like Hindu mythology level of worldview. (Also Ash Lake being filled with water as opposed to fog is also a direct reference and and effect of Sisters of Izalith burning down much of the old world, presumably causing a giant rain in the aftermath clearing the fog and forming the endless ocean)

This phenomenon where eras stack on top of each other is again shown in Dark Souls 3, though more extreme in many ways.

......
......
......

Dark Souls' worldbuilding is obviously, incredibly unrealistic and it's not like it ever tried to be realistic when you'd figured out what you're getting into within 3 seconds of the cinematic of the very first game. But for the very most part it's internally consistent with its mythological narrative and worldbuilding, so much so it even matches almost perfectly with the gameplay components, which most games struggles to even attempt.

As the reader/player/audience of Dark Souls, you know that you're in it for the epic like the Epic of Gilgamesh, complete with its unique metaphorical worldview and themes that refers to material concepts, items, or events, than it is about concrete portrayal of realism.

Its sheer narrative scale and scope provides a incredible sense of scale and wonder (or dread) while addressing relevant messages creatively through the vehicles of fiction and mystical, as a modern epic worthy to be remembered for the days to come.

Yeah, YOU'RE explaining this garbage. That's why I'm saying that fan-explanations are quaint, but nothing more. The game doesn't imply any of that nonsense about Estus lmfao. We can dream up whatever stories we want, but yeah, good luck proving them. It's a video game, and From pretty much planted it right where it is. They don't seem keen on explaining anything else.

The great thing about Dark Souls is how much room it leaves for people to dream stuff up, doesn't mean each theory is always good though!

And uh, Epic of Gilgamesh is on a completely different level than Dark Souls, as far as story-telling. You are comparing one of the oldest recorded epics....to Dark Souls, of all games? Don't get me wrong, I love Dark Souls, but the storytelling is nowhere near the scale of Gligamesh...wow! People need to get out more LOL