Ornstein and Smough don't deserve the praise

[Franklin]

This bossfight... it's really something else. Ignoring the terrible hitboxes, input-dropping that causes me to get hit despite me pressing the roll button, and the overall terrible pacing of combat (which is more of a DS1 issue than an O&S issue), this fight is hilariously poorly thought-out, with the only thing stopping me from breaking my controller in rage being the sheer absurdity of the thought that people at Fromsoftware looked at this boss, got feedback from playtesters and thought, "Who cares, put that in the game and make it a main story boss so the players have to fight it".
It wouldn't even be that bad if it was either just Smough or just Ornstein, but no. It's both of them. At the same time. Ornstein will begin an attack before you've even fully entered the arena, either shooting a lightning projectile that lines up nicely with other attacks in a way that perfectly utilises the slowness of the projectile to catch you after your rolling i-frames end, or flying over to you in a split-second and testing your reflexes with an instant stabbing attack. Meanwhile, Smough will be walking up to you at a slower, yet consistent pace, constantly demanding your attention and making sure you don't punish Ornstein during his openings by pulling out one of his many monotonous, irksome hammer attacks that do absurd damage and can roll-catch you if you slip up even slightly, and god forbid Ornstein winds up his anime dash-attack whilst behind Smough, as this will result in him getting stuck, looking stupid, but eventually zooming out at a random moment to test your reflexes. Again.
Another annoying thing these bosses do is quickstepping to the side, which often results in you not being able to keep tabs on both Ornstein and Smough at once, as they will be on either side of you, simultaneously winding up attacks.

There's plenty of other annoying things about this bossfight, but I just felt like venting some of my anger about the first phase in particular online like the complete and utter noob that I am. I would also like to mention that my hate for this boss fight does not come from the difficulty it poses, but more so the way in which it is difficult. The issues I have described in this post are what we call 'artificial difficulty', and that is the type of nonsense I hate in these games. Otherwise I am generally a huge fan of Fromsoftware's games, especially Elden Ring, which got me into this series (and may have been the main reason I dislike DS1's gameplay, what with four-directional rolling, the slow pace and janky animations being antiquated and boring in comparison to the more fluid revision of DS3's combat system and new sets of mechanics that set Elden Ring so far apart from previous installments).

[akpocfallout]

Originally posted by CurvitureBanana:

This bossfight... it's really something else. Ignoring the terrible hitboxes, input-dropping that causes me to get hit despite me pressing the roll button, and the overall terrible pacing of combat (which is more of a DS1 issue than an O&S issue), this fight is hilariously poorly thought-out, with the only thing stopping me from breaking my controller in rage being the sheer absurdity of the thought that people at Fromsoftware looked at this boss, got feedback from playtesters and thought, "Who cares, put that in the game and make it a main story boss so the players have to fight it".
It wouldn't even be that bad if it was either just Smough or just Ornstein, but no. It's both of them. At the same time. Ornstein will begin an attack before you've even fully entered the arena, either shooting a lightning projectile that lines up nicely with other attacks in a way that perfectly utilises the slowness of the projectile to catch you after your rolling i-frames end, or flying over to you in a split-second and testing your reflexes with an instant stabbing attack. Meanwhile, Smough will be walking up to you at a slower, yet consistent pace, constantly demanding your attention and making sure you don't punish Ornstein during his openings by pulling out one of his many monotonous, irksome hammer attacks that do absurd damage and can roll-catch you if you slip up even slightly, and god forbid Ornstein winds up his anime dash-attack whilst behind Smough, as this will result in him getting stuck, looking stupid, but eventually zooming out at a random moment to test your reflexes. Again.
Another annoying thing these bosses do is quickstepping to the side, which often results in you not being able to keep tabs on both Ornstein and Smough at once, as they will be on either side of you, simultaneously winding up attacks.

There's plenty of other annoying things about this bossfight, but I just felt like venting some of my anger about the first phase in particular online like the complete and utter noob that I am. I would also like to mention that my hate for this boss fight does not come from the difficulty it poses, but more so the way in which it is difficult. The issues I have described in this post are what we call 'artificial difficulty', and that is the type of nonsense I hate in these games. Otherwise I am generally a huge fan of Fromsoftware's games, especially Elden Ring, which got me into this series (and may have been the main reason I dislike DS1's gameplay, what with four-directional rolling, the slow pace and janky animations being antiquated and boring in comparison to the more fluid revision of DS3's combat system and new sets of mechanics that set Elden Ring so far apart from previous installments).

It's Dark Souls, baby! :) :)

[akpocfallout]

Originally posted by CurvitureBanana:

This bossfight... it's really something else. Ignoring the terrible hitboxes, input-dropping that causes me to get hit despite me pressing the roll button, and the overall terrible pacing of combat (which is more of a DS1 issue than an O&S issue), this fight is hilariously poorly thought-out, with the only thing stopping me from breaking my controller in rage being the sheer absurdity of the thought that people at Fromsoftware looked at this boss, got feedback from playtesters and thought, "Who cares, put that in the game and make it a main story boss so the players have to fight it".
It wouldn't even be that bad if it was either just Smough or just Ornstein, but no. It's both of them. At the same time. Ornstein will begin an attack before you've even fully entered the arena, either shooting a lightning projectile that lines up nicely with other attacks in a way that perfectly utilises the slowness of the projectile to catch you after your rolling i-frames end, or flying over to you in a split-second and testing your reflexes with an instant stabbing attack. Meanwhile, Smough will be walking up to you at a slower, yet consistent pace, constantly demanding your attention and making sure you don't punish Ornstein during his openings by pulling out one of his many monotonous, irksome hammer attacks that do absurd damage and can roll-catch you if you slip up even slightly, and god forbid Ornstein winds up his anime dash-attack whilst behind Smough, as this will result in him getting stuck, looking stupid, but eventually zooming out at a random moment to test your reflexes. Again.
Another annoying thing these bosses do is quickstepping to the side, which often results in you not being able to keep tabs on both Ornstein and Smough at once, as they will be on either side of you, simultaneously winding up attacks.

There's plenty of other annoying things about this bossfight, but I just felt like venting some of my anger about the first phase in particular online like the complete and utter noob that I am. I would also like to mention that my hate for this boss fight does not come from the difficulty it poses, but more so the way in which it is difficult. The issues I have described in this post are what we call 'artificial difficulty', and that is the type of nonsense I hate in these games. Otherwise I am generally a huge fan of Fromsoftware's games, especially Elden Ring, which got me into this series (and may have been the main reason I dislike DS1's gameplay, what with four-directional rolling, the slow pace and janky animations being antiquated and boring in comparison to the more fluid revision of DS3's combat system and new sets of mechanics that set Elden Ring so far apart from previous installments).

Or better like this: This is Dark Souls!!!

[richardson]

After you've tried it a few more times and gotten over the hump, gotten used to using spacing and the environment to separate them, dialed your aggression down to the appropriate level, and learned to focus on the one you're _not_ fighting in order to time your openings - you'll realize the difficulty isn't artificial at all, it was just where you were on the learning curve.

I am adamantly opposed to bringing out the "git gud" dismissal of someone's concerns, but these specific complaints are emblematic of a certain point at learning the fight.

[Nearlydead]

That spear charge Ornstein does is kinda ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. He can get stuck at a pillar then move in a circle behind you then hit you. His charge will never end until he reaches you. I love the fight though. Dark Souls just isn't for everyone I guess. It's a git gud situation.

[Agoraphobic Meep]

I want to preface that I actually kinda agree, O&S are far from the masterpiece people make them out to be. They're a good boss but they have never been a masterpiece due to a handful of issues, especially in ds1 where kalameet, artorias, and manus overshadow them heavily. With that said:

"Ornstein will begin an attack before you've even fully entered the arena, either shooting a lightning projectile that lines up nicely with other attacks in a way that perfectly utilises the slowness of the projectile to catch you after your rolling i-frames end, or flying over to you in a split-second and testing your reflexes with an instant stabbing attack."
-You can react to both, and it only takes one or two attempts before you should catch on ornstein is always going to open the fight with something. This is actually a good thing for you more often than not since, assuming ornstein charges, it separates ornstein from smough early and allows you to get some hits in.

"Meanwhile, Smough will be walking up to you at a slower, yet consistent pace, constantly demanding your attention and making sure you don't punish Ornstein during his openings by pulling out one of his many monotonous, irksome hammer attacks that do absurd damage and can roll-catch you if you slip up even slightly"
-Ignoring the obvious answer of kiting him around pillars so you can slap ornstein which is the gameplan the entire game is designed around (and one I personally tend to ignore in place of a faster strat), smough's hammer swings are comically slow and aren't really that bad in terms of lingering hitboxes outside of le funny charge. You can roll through his hammer swings and he'll be docile for a few seconds after, meaning you can then pay attention to and punish ornstein during that time.


"Ornstein winds up his anime dash-attack whilst behind Smough, as this will result in him getting stuck, looking stupid, but eventually zooming out at a random moment to test your reflexes. Again.:
-No comment here, this attack is buggy as ♥♥♥♥ and I really do wish it wasn't in the game, so yeah pretty fair criticism.


"Another annoying thing these bosses do is quickstepping to the side, which often results in you not being able to keep tabs on both Ornstein and Smough at once, as they will be on either side of you, simultaneously winding up attacks. "
-Just like what I said with the pillars, you need to position yourself well. This entire fight is a contest in positioning so that you can not only keep track of and avoid but also take advantage of the limited openings the duo provides. If you stay around the midrange where you can make smough do his slower hammer swings and not his charge, and also react to whatever openings ornstein provides, you'll be at a range where you can still see both of them when they hop around. This is the game's way of telling you to back up and keep some distance for this fight.

"what with four-directional rolling, the slow pace and janky animations being antiquated and boring"
-Don't lock on during boss fights, you can roll whatever direction you want then and it's easier to keep track of bosses when they jump around like with what you said earlier. You will feel like a god when you get used to it.

[Jenie from blackpink]

too long didnt read

[Witch ~]

Because its the only real "filter" the game has. While still being fairly fair.
Lets be honest most other bosses up to that point are fairly easy.

[Franklin]

Originally posted by Witch ~:

Because its the only real "filter" the game has. While still being fairly fair.
Lets be honest most other bosses up to that point are fairly easy.

True that. I just wish the boss difficulty would be more consistent, as having Ornstein and Smough, the wall of a bossfight that they are, following right after the IRON GOLEM is a bit of a jump, especially for a new player like me.

[Franklin]

Originally posted by Agoraphobic Meep:

I want to preface that I actually kinda agree, O&S are far from the masterpiece people make them out to be. They're a good boss but they have never been a masterpiece due to a handful of issues, especially in ds1 where kalameet, artorias, and manus overshadow them heavily. With that said:

"Ornstein will begin an attack before you've even fully entered the arena, either shooting a lightning projectile that lines up nicely with other attacks in a way that perfectly utilises the slowness of the projectile to catch you after your rolling i-frames end, or flying over to you in a split-second and testing your reflexes with an instant stabbing attack."
-You can react to both, and it only takes one or two attempts before you should catch on ornstein is always going to open the fight with something. This is actually a good thing for you more often than not since, assuming ornstein charges, it separates ornstein from smough early and allows you to get some hits in.

"Meanwhile, Smough will be walking up to you at a slower, yet consistent pace, constantly demanding your attention and making sure you don't punish Ornstein during his openings by pulling out one of his many monotonous, irksome hammer attacks that do absurd damage and can roll-catch you if you slip up even slightly"
-Ignoring the obvious answer of kiting him around pillars so you can slap ornstein which is the gameplan the entire game is designed around (and one I personally tend to ignore in place of a faster strat), smough's hammer swings are comically slow and aren't really that bad in terms of lingering hitboxes outside of le funny charge. You can roll through his hammer swings and he'll be docile for a few seconds after, meaning you can then pay attention to and punish ornstein during that time.


"Ornstein winds up his anime dash-attack whilst behind Smough, as this will result in him getting stuck, looking stupid, but eventually zooming out at a random moment to test your reflexes. Again.:
-No comment here, this attack is buggy as ♥♥♥♥ and I really do wish it wasn't in the game, so yeah pretty fair criticism.


"Another annoying thing these bosses do is quickstepping to the side, which often results in you not being able to keep tabs on both Ornstein and Smough at once, as they will be on either side of you, simultaneously winding up attacks. "
-Just like what I said with the pillars, you need to position yourself well. This entire fight is a contest in positioning so that you can not only keep track of and avoid but also take advantage of the limited openings the duo provides. If you stay around the midrange where you can make smough do his slower hammer swings and not his charge, and also react to whatever openings ornstein provides, you'll be at a range where you can still see both of them when they hop around. This is the game's way of telling you to back up and keep some distance for this fight.

"what with four-directional rolling, the slow pace and janky animations being antiquated and boring"
-Don't lock on during boss fights, you can roll whatever direction you want then and it's easier to keep track of bosses when they jump around like with what you said earlier. You will feel like a god when you get used to it.

Thanks for the advice man, people like you keep my faith in the Fromsoft community alive. Not gatekeeping me, not telling me to 'git gud' or just to use a different build, just giving me honest and clear advice, and taking the time to read and analyse the sea of text I wrote in a fit of anger (there's always somebody who makes a comment on the length of my posts instead of just ignoring them). I hope you have a nice day.

[Old Captain Yon]

ds1 is beautiful in that there are many options, except the gitting gud (the guide to it was given by the good man above). you really can try and change weapons, or maybe even resort to a shield (it's ds1, so the shields are actually useful). if it makes you rage wait a couple days then try again, it works like charm really. and at least, there is an npc summon - whom not everyone wants to use, but it's here for a reason, they are ganking so why wouldn't you, i say

[darinbob]

Originally posted by Witch ~:

Because its the only real "filter" the game has. While still being fairly fair.
Lets be honest most other bosses up to that point are fairly easy.

Let's be honest, no bosses after them are that hard either. They're probably the hardest boss in the game, though it does depend upon build or play style. Since they're the hardest, they don't really count as a filter or check for later content.

But yet\s, it may make someone play differently than previously.

[Gallo]

Originally posted by CurvitureBanana:

This bossfight... it's really something else. Ignoring the terrible hitboxes, input-dropping that causes me to get hit despite me pressing the roll button, and the overall terrible pacing of combat (which is more of a DS1 issue than an O&S issue), this fight is hilariously poorly thought-out, with the only thing stopping me from breaking my controller in rage being the sheer absurdity of the thought that people at Fromsoftware looked at this boss, got feedback from playtesters and thought, "Who cares, put that in the game and make it a main story boss so the players have to fight it".
It wouldn't even be that bad if it was either just Smough or just Ornstein, but no. It's both of them. At the same time. Ornstein will begin an attack before you've even fully entered the arena, either shooting a lightning projectile that lines up nicely with other attacks in a way that perfectly utilises the slowness of the projectile to catch you after your rolling i-frames end, or flying over to you in a split-second and testing your reflexes with an instant stabbing attack. Meanwhile, Smough will be walking up to you at a slower, yet consistent pace, constantly demanding your attention and making sure you don't punish Ornstein during his openings by pulling out one of his many monotonous, irksome hammer attacks that do absurd damage and can roll-catch you if you slip up even slightly, and god forbid Ornstein winds up his anime dash-attack whilst behind Smough, as this will result in him getting stuck, looking stupid, but eventually zooming out at a random moment to test your reflexes. Again.
Another annoying thing these bosses do is quickstepping to the side, which often results in you not being able to keep tabs on both Ornstein and Smough at once, as they will be on either side of you, simultaneously winding up attacks.

There's plenty of other annoying things about this bossfight, but I just felt like venting some of my anger about the first phase in particular online like the complete and utter noob that I am. I would also like to mention that my hate for this boss fight does not come from the difficulty it poses, but more so the way in which it is difficult. The issues I have described in this post are what we call 'artificial difficulty', and that is the type of nonsense I hate in these games. Otherwise I am generally a huge fan of Fromsoftware's games, especially Elden Ring, which got me into this series (and may have been the main reason I dislike DS1's gameplay, what with four-directional rolling, the slow pace and janky animations being antiquated and boring in comparison to the more fluid revision of DS3's combat system and new sets of mechanics that set Elden Ring so far apart from previous installments).

only thing i think is truely unfair about the boss is the glitchy pikachu spear grab and the lightning fast thrust behind smough, but i dont think these make it that much more difficult. Rather than artificial difficulty i think the difficulty of the fight comes from positioning. the two bosses compliment eachother perfectly but alone they stand little chance, which is why you have to use the pillars to control them. without the pillars, i think you could argue its artificially difficult but as it is, i disagree

[LIBERAL PRESBYTERIAN]

Originally posted by Franklin:

This bossfight... it's really something else. Ignoring the terrible hitboxes, input-dropping that causes me to get hit despite me pressing the roll button, and the overall terrible pacing of combat (which is more of a DS1 issue than an O&S issue), this fight is hilariously poorly thought-out, with the only thing stopping me from breaking my controller in rage being the sheer absurdity of the thought that people at Fromsoftware looked at this boss, got feedback from playtesters and thought, "Who cares, put that in the game and make it a main story boss so the players have to fight it".
It wouldn't even be that bad if it was either just Smough or just Ornstein, but no. It's both of them. At the same time. Ornstein will begin an attack before you've even fully entered the arena, either shooting a lightning projectile that lines up nicely with other attacks in a way that perfectly utilises the slowness of the projectile to catch you after your rolling i-frames end, or flying over to you in a split-second and testing your reflexes with an instant stabbing attack. Meanwhile, Smough will be walking up to you at a slower, yet consistent pace, constantly demanding your attention and making sure you don't punish Ornstein during his openings by pulling out one of his many monotonous, irksome hammer attacks that do absurd damage and can roll-catch you if you slip up even slightly, and god forbid Ornstein winds up his anime dash-attack whilst behind Smough, as this will result in him getting stuck, looking stupid, but eventually zooming out at a random moment to test your reflexes. Again.
Another annoying thing these bosses do is quickstepping to the side, which often results in you not being able to keep tabs on both Ornstein and Smough at once, as they will be on either side of you, simultaneously winding up attacks.

There's plenty of other annoying things about this bossfight, but I just felt like venting some of my anger about the first phase in particular online like the complete and utter noob that I am. I would also like to mention that my hate for this boss fight does not come from the difficulty it poses, but more so the way in which it is difficult. The issues I have described in this post are what we call 'artificial difficulty', and that is the type of nonsense I hate in these games. Otherwise I am generally a huge fan of Fromsoftware's games, especially Elden Ring, which got me into this series (and may have been the main reason I dislike DS1's gameplay, what with four-directional rolling, the slow pace and janky animations being antiquated and boring in comparison to the more fluid revision of DS3's combat system and new sets of mechanics that set Elden Ring so far apart from previous installments).

Git Gud!

[Togo]

I did it yesterday first try with Solaire. Took me like 1 minute. Yes I had the black Knight hallberd