Rockets too exploitable?

[Sanct Failus]

Not sure if this bugs only me but here is my problem:

On maps like snowbreeze or chummy potato I came across some witches who use the rockets (both maps have 3 as far as I´m aware) to quickly get away from the hunter. BUT! They not only run away, they also fly to the next rocket. Transform, fly to the next rocket, transform, fly to the next.... you get the point.

It´s extremly hard to hit a small target that flies away so fast. In other words... it sucks all the fun out of the game whenever a witch does that. At least thats how I feel about it.

How do you, fellow wierd person on the interwebs, feel about the subject at hand?
And in case any of the developers come across this thread - well - how is your opinion? Any chance for a balance patch in the future?

[HerrKomm]

This used to be a big problem on kula kula islands which had fireworks all over the place, but I haven't had any problems with the fireworks ever since the end of the valentine/chinese new year event, which drastically reduced the ammount of fireworks on all maps.

Although they can still fly to each corner towards the fireworks, they can't do it in such a way as was the case on kula kula islands back in the day and I therefore have yet to have any problems with this on any map including chummy potato.

The reason being that if your aim and mobility is good you should be able to at the very least hit them 1/2 times (which is from my experience the minimum, rather than the common ammount of hits I get in that instance since for me it tends to be above that number) before they reach the next fireworks and so on (and that's setting aside the issue of there also being other hunters who can help you out), because:
1. the fireworks are in specific hidden locations and the witches have to look directly at them to be able to transform
2. Chummy potato is a pretty open and small map, which makes seeing where they go and getting to them fairly easy (unlike kula kula islands, which is open, but not small)

That being said I do think people need to keep paying close attention to this issue because previously when you played on kula kula islands and you didn't have a lot of hunters on your team and the witches went for the fireworks cheese, you simply could not kill them, unless they somehow messed up.

[HerrKomm]

I just played a few games in which witches tried going for the fireworks cheese on maps such as chummy potato and snowbreeze, and again it didn't work against me, however it did work against other hunters on my team.

Now obviously they were a much lower level than me (I am level 60 whereas the average player was around level 10-15), that being said it made me consider that maybe it isn't just because of that (alone) but (also) because they don't use the garlic, whereas I do.

So if you have trouble with the fireworks you may consider using the garlic, that being said the question is if it should be the case that the hunters have to use up a utility to be able to counter a prop strat (as opposed to a utility strat), this is an internal debate the developers would have to have about that.

In any event, whatever their position, the garlic most definitely hard counters it.

[Sanct Failus]

Huh ... these are counter strats - no doubt about it.
But ... coordinating with the other hunters is quite difficult without a hunter-only chat. Plus I´m not so keen about the garlic too. The other two utility skills seem just way more versatile to me.

Whatever - thanks for the counter tipps anyway. I will remember them in case there happens to be an over the top cheesy witch in my next lobby. ^^

[Derzo]

Ayy dat was fun, in a chummy round I was afk as giant pizza and in the last minute ~13 Hunters found me an I just flew PERFECTLY from one to another. Also use up an ability? Garlic is great :(

[HerrKomm]

Originally posted by Derzo:

Also use up an ability? Garlic is great :(

Yeah, garlic is amazing and highly underrated.

[Sanct Failus]

I guess it´s just a subjectiv thing. For me the chicken feels like the most usefull. Since I can hit it with an projectile I can cover a larger area with it. After that is the vacuum-thing. It slows the witch down but it messes up the props so witches can hide more easily (that´s what I do and it works quite well). And garlic. Huh... I can see it´s use against the confusion-shrooms but ... I don´t know. Aside the shrooms there have never been many instances where I thought "man, if only I had garlic now". =/

[HerrKomm]

Originally posted by Sanct Failus:

I guess it´s just a subjectiv thing. For me the chicken feels like the most usefull. Since I can hit it with an projectile I can cover a larger area with it. After that is the vacuum-thing. It slows the witch down but it messes up the props so witches can hide more easily (that´s what I do and it works quite well). And garlic. Huh... I can see it´s use against the confusion-shrooms but ... I don´t know. Aside the shrooms there have never been many instances where I thought "man, if only I had garlic now". =/

The problems with the chicken are:
1. decoys counter chickens
2. chickens provide no offensive utility as it's solely for tracking

Given that people who attempt to go for the fireworks cheese have no intent of hiding, finding them isn't the issue, only catching them is.

Equally you can combine the garlic with the bodyslam in case you feel you at the very least do need a form of tracking, since bodyslams can help you check a lot of props quickly/simultaneously.

[TTR]

Zoom can work as well as garlic.

Good counter-strat is to knock down the fireworks and try to melee hide them. This way the witches can't transform again. < Nobody ever does that but it works so well xD.

I think the fireworks should stay.

[HerrKomm]

Originally posted by TTR:

Zoom can work as well as garlic.

Good counter-strat is to knock down the fireworks and try to melee hide them. This way the witches can't transform again. < Nobody ever does that but it works so well xD.

I think the fireworks should stay.

Well even if we assume that the fireworks are currently "too exploitable" which depending on which criteria you're using may or may not be true.

Even then keeping them the way they are or removing them entirely is a false dichotomy, since the third option would be to relocate them or a fourth option would be to remove some of them and not all of them.

My biggest problem as of right now with the fireworks is not that I can't counter it (since I just garlic their ass and it's game over), but rather that each time I have at least 1 level 60 witch in my game and we're on a map such as chummy potato, I know they are going to go for the fireworks cheese and it can make things repetitive and annoying as they will do it every single game where we end up on a map in which they can do it.

There may be ways to deal with a mechanic, that however doesn't necessarily make it fun.

[Sanct Failus]

I´d say there are even more options to deal with the fireworks.

Reducing the amount of fireworks per map variant to 1 would help. But alternativly the rockets could also be given a slower flyingspeed so it travels shorter distances. Another option I see is to give them a random flying path so you might end up far more to the left/right then you actually aimed for. Yet another option would be to disable transformation back into witch form once *E* is pressed. BUT! The witch will not die at the end of the flight. She will recive a stun for 1~5 seconds. That way running from a hunter will turn into a rist/reward situation.

[Potch]

Originally posted by TTR:

Zoom can work as well as garlic.

Good counter-strat is to knock down the fireworks and try to melee hide them. This way the witches can't transform again. < Nobody ever does that but it works so well xD.

I think the fireworks should stay.

I second what TTR says here. Knocking the fireworks down with your melee or vacuum talent is a strong strategy. Nerfing the firework kind of defeats the purpose of having them around at all I think. If something were to be done about it though I think a quick fix would be to reduce the time it takes to explode. Narrowing the window to transform back and requiring precise time from the witch.

Personally I think the rockets are fine as they are.

[HerrKomm]

Originally posted by MoeCityDon:

I second what TTR says here. Knocking the fireworks down with your melee or vacuum talent is a strong strategy. Nerfing the firework kind of defeats the purpose of having them around at all I think. If something were to be done about it though I think a quick fix would be to reduce the time it takes to explode. Narrowing the window to transform back and requiring presice time from the witch.

Personally I think the rockets are fine as they are.

Well I would disagree with the statement that changing the spawning of the fireworks would "defeat the purpose of having them around", and there is a very simple reason for that but it will require some elaboration on my part.

For example I have played a game called Dead by Daylight for almost 2K hours, this game, just like Witch It is an asymmetrical game where one side hunts and the other side has to try to survive.

Setting aside all the many details of the game, I want to focus on one specific detail which is relevant here: Dead by Daylight has a thing they call the "chase economy", now what the chase economy is, is a set of obstacles and objects the survivors can use to navigate around and/or use to extend chases.

So this boils down to not just the general layout of the map, but also specific tools they can use inside the map, such as pallets or windows.

Now how these tools are used, and quite effectively for that matter is through what they call "looping", which just means, as you should expect, running around in circles. In practice, if the survivors are good enough, this is what happens: you find the nearest survivor, who doesn't hide nor has any intention of hiding, because they can just cheese their way to victory through looping.

So after you found them, this is what then happens: you run after the survivor, run around a pallet in a few circles, get a pallet slammet into your face, break the pallet (if you don't break it they can keep sliding over the pallet, which a killer cannot, and therefore indefinitely keep you occupied there), run to the next pallet and repeat until the game is over, in which case everybody ran out and survived and you killed nobody.

For a long time people who play killer have complained that this form of gameplay is exceptionally frustrating (which it is, because as a killer you feel powerless, when you're supposed to be the one playing the power role), and finally the developers of the game have decided to make some major changes to the chase economy, and also to how pallets specifically work (whether or not their changes will be sufficient we shall see).

Now Witch It on the other hand, circumvents this form of frustration entirely by the simple fact that Witch It does NOT have a chase economy. Witch It relies entirely on mechanics which are designed to prevent being found (such as the ability to transform into a prop, which allows you to disappear somewhere within the mass of props or to find a location on the map in which you are harder to spot, or the decoy to mislead chickens and prevent being found in the first place) or to attempt to end the chase quickly (such as the mushrooms or the Luaq (although the Luaq is a bit of a hybrid, as it both can help you end a chase, but it can also just be used to distract hunters while they are looking around for witches)). Which is why I think Witch It is such a fun game and why I love playing as a hunter.

Now the fireworks cheese exactly displays elements of the chase economy for the simple reason that the fireworks cheese is not a strategy used to abide by the principles mentioned earlier: trying to lose the hunters, or prevent being found to begin with, it's purpose, which is also what it's used for, is to EXTEND chases. And as I explained earlier such a mechanic is frustrating.

In which case, to answer what "the purpose" would be of fireworks without the cheese, it would be the same as the Luaq or the mushrooms, it would be to try to lose the hunter once found, instead of unnecessarily prolonging chases.

You can always re-engage with the hunters once you lost them if you so please, hence why you also have the ability to taunt, but that's different from intentionally prolonging a chase, as in that instance (assuming the hunter would be unsuccessful repeatedly) you are not prolonging a chase, but continually re-engaging in new chases.



TL/DR; the purpose of having fireworks without the cheese would be to lose the hunter(s) instead of intentionally keeping them occupied by purposefully extending a chase for as long as possible by going back and forth between fireworks on each side of the map, since the alternative is just frustrating and repetitive regardless of whether or not it has any counterplay.

[Potch]

Very interesting comment HerrKomm. Though my previous statement about nerfing the firework was not in reference to spawn locations. I suggested if something were to be done the time be reduced for the rocket to blow up. That way it will discourage witches from abusing that form of play and require a higher level of timing and skill to pull of the same behavior. Personally I think nerfing the firework so its easier for hunters and lame and not fun anymore of witches defeats the purpose of having them around. If you're going to make them weaker to discourage people from using that form of play you might as well just get rid of them until the next valentines event.

One of my favorite aspects of witch it is that you can approach the game any way you want.
Personally regulating aspects of the game to control how people play sounds like a bad direction to me.

Crippling a feature to improve gameplay could result in destroying the gameplay experience for others. There are always two side to a coin with elements like this and I think both sides should be considered if developers make a change.

[TTR]

Originally posted by HerrKomm:

Well I would disagree with the statement that changing the spawning of the fireworks would "defeat the purpose of having them around", and there is a very simple reason for that but it will require some elaboration on my part.

For example I have played a game called Dead by Daylight for almost 2K hours, this game, just like Witch It is an asymmetrical game where one side hunts and the other side has to try to survive.

Setting aside all the many details of the game, I want to focus on one specific detail which is relevant here: Dead by Daylight has a thing they call the "chase economy", now what the chase economy is, is a set of obstacles and objects the survivors can use to navigate around and/or use to extend chases.

So this boils down to not just the general layout of the map, but also specific tools they can use inside the map, such as pallets or windows.

Now how these tools are used, and quite effectively for that matter is through what they call "looping", which just means, as you should expect, running around in circles. In practice, if the survivors are good enough, this is what happens: you find the nearest survivor, who doesn't hide nor has any intention of hiding, because they can just cheese their way to victory through looping.

So after you found them, this is what then happens: you run after the survivor, run around a pallet in a few circles, get a pallet slammet into your face, break the pallet (if you don't break it they can keep sliding over the pallet, which a killer cannot, and therefore indefinitely keep you occupied there), run to the next pallet and repeat until the game is over, in which case everybody ran out and survived and you killed nobody.

For a long time people who play killer have complained that this form of gameplay is exceptionally frustrating (which it is, because as a killer you feel powerless, when you're supposed to be the one playing the power role), and finally the developers of the game have decided to make some major changes to the chase economy, and also to how pallets specifically work (whether or not their changes will be sufficient we shall see).

Now Witch It on the other hand, circumvents this form of frustration entirely by the simple fact that Witch It does NOT have a chase economy.

So... All that to say Witch It doesn't have a chase economy which is why you like the game.
Oh but wait...

Originally posted by HerrKomm:

Now the fireworks cheese exactly displays elements of the chase economy for the simple reason that the fireworks cheese is not a strategy used to abide by the principles mentioned earlier: trying to lose the hunters, or prevent being found to begin with, it's purpose, which is also what it's used for, is to EXTEND chases. And as I explained earlier such a mechanic is frustrating.

Now Witch It has a chase economy? You're contradicting yourself a bit.

You really think Mushroom, Garlic, Zoom, Decoy, etc was not built around a chase economy?
For the Chase?
What about the small props like bowls, pillows, etc?

The mentionned above were clearly to extend chases because a lot of people play Prop Hunt just for the chase.

Witch It doesn't just consist of losing hunters or staying hidden. A lot of it is the chase, sorry that's not your kind of fun but that's the facts.

"The purpose of fireworks": They were made as a fun way to knock yourself out. It actually takes skills to extend the chase with fireworks because that was not the original purpose but an extra possibility. Those fireworks are fine as is. Most people can't even use them without dying.

Originally posted by MoeCityDon:

One of my favorite aspects of witch it is that you can approach the game any way you want.
Personally regulating aspects of the game to control how people play sounds like a bad direction to me.

Crippling a feature to improve gameplay could result in destroying the gameplay experience for others. There are always two side to a coin with elements like this and I think both sides should be considered if developers make a change.

+1 to this

[HerrKomm]

Originally posted by TTR:

Originally posted by HerrKomm:

Well I would disagree with the statement that changing the spawning of the fireworks would "defeat the purpose of having them around", and there is a very simple reason for that but it will require some elaboration on my part.

For example I have played a game called Dead by Daylight for almost 2K hours, this game, just like Witch It is an asymmetrical game where one side hunts and the other side has to try to survive.

Setting aside all the many details of the game, I want to focus on one specific detail which is relevant here: Dead by Daylight has a thing they call the "chase economy", now what the chase economy is, is a set of obstacles and objects the survivors can use to navigate around and/or use to extend chases.

So this boils down to not just the general layout of the map, but also specific tools they can use inside the map, such as pallets or windows.

Now how these tools are used, and quite effectively for that matter is through what they call "looping", which just means, as you should expect, running around in circles. In practice, if the survivors are good enough, this is what happens: you find the nearest survivor, who doesn't hide nor has any intention of hiding, because they can just cheese their way to victory through looping.

So after you found them, this is what then happens: you run after the survivor, run around a pallet in a few circles, get a pallet slammet into your face, break the pallet (if you don't break it they can keep sliding over the pallet, which a killer cannot, and therefore indefinitely keep you occupied there), run to the next pallet and repeat until the game is over, in which case everybody ran out and survived and you killed nobody.

For a long time people who play killer have complained that this form of gameplay is exceptionally frustrating (which it is, because as a killer you feel powerless, when you're supposed to be the one playing the power role), and finally the developers of the game have decided to make some major changes to the chase economy, and also to how pallets specifically work (whether or not their changes will be sufficient we shall see).

Now Witch It on the other hand, circumvents this form of frustration entirely by the simple fact that Witch It does NOT have a chase economy.

So... All that to say Witch It doesn't have a chase economy which is why you like the game.
Oh but wait...

Originally posted by HerrKomm:

Now the fireworks cheese exactly displays elements of the chase economy for the simple reason that the fireworks cheese is not a strategy used to abide by the principles mentioned earlier: trying to lose the hunters, or prevent being found to begin with, it's purpose, which is also what it's used for, is to EXTEND chases. And as I explained earlier such a mechanic is frustrating.

Now Witch It has a chase economy? You're contradicting yourself a bit.

No contradiction there, since I stated it has something which is similar to the chase economy, even though the game overall has no such thing. I'm sorry you are not able to read my words accordingly.

Originally posted by TTR:

You really think Mushroom, Garlic, Zoom, Decoy, etc was not built around a chase economy?
For the Chase?
What about the small props like bowls, pillows, etc?

The mentionned above were clearly to extend chases because a lot of people play Prop Hunt just for the chase.

Witch It doesn't just consist of losing hunters or staying hidden. A lot of it is the chase, sorry that's not your kind of fun but that's the facts.

"The purpose of fireworks": They were made as a fun way to knock yourself out. It actually takes skills to extend the chase with fireworks because that was not the original purpose but an extra possibility. Those fireworks are fine as is. Most people can't even use them without dying.

Nope, because I explained why;
A decoy doesn't extend a chase, since if you spawn a decoy mid chase, I can see you spawned it and I just chase you and ignore the decoy.

Mushrooms don't extend the chase, it messes with the vision and the controls of the hunter, which may lead to the hunter losing you during the chase, and hence the chase is concluded, if however the hunter uses the correct countermeasures, then the chase continues as normal as if the mushrooms weren't even used, in which case the chase is not EXTENDED, but simply continues as it would have without the mushrooms.

And so on.

And I'm sorry, but this is also an argument made in defense of looping on DBD, so I'm just going to state it as it is (as is also the case on DBD): using the fireworks cheese requires absolutely no skill, NONE whatsoever. You can believe it does, that doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't.