SMG and attention to detail

[TheAceOfSpodes]

I have one very minor gripe with the game. There's loads of attention to detail in the guns and call ins. As a gun nerd, I really appreciate it.

But then it feels like the devs got the design decisions for SMGs and ARs mixed up.

SMGs are (almost always) faster firing and smaller caliber than an AR, due to their use of direct blowback actions (rather than gas impingement or a pistons) and pistol calibers rather than intermediate cartridges.

Anyways thanks for listening to my ted talk, figured it'd be worth posting something other than complaining about the servers.

[Metal]

Kind of a lot wrong with what you said. In games, SMGs are often fast firing with lower damage per round, meant to be close-quarters weapons. But cyclic rate IRL isn't just as simple as what cartridge it uses and the operating mechanism. Within in any system there are design changes that can be made to adjust it one way or the other, regardless of caliber.

Direct blowback is an easy adjustment by adding mass to the bolt carrier - the M3 grease gun SMG had a low fire rate using that idea in .45 ACP, a pistol caliber. Many WW2-era SMGs did the same thing to make the guns more controllable. By comparison, the M1919 machine guns put into aircraft were adjusted to have very high fire rates to maximize their hit potential in a short engagement time, and they using full power .30-06, a rifle caliber. The MG42 also had a famously high fire rate using 8mm Mauser.

Modern short-barrelled M4's have a very high cyclic rate since the short system puts a lot of gas at high pressure back into to bolt carrier with the AR-15's (semi) direct impingement system, but gas systems in general actually give a lot of adjustability since you can alter the length of the system and limit how much gas is put into it. Most cold war battle rifles had adjustable gas blocks, mostly to put more gas into the system for reliability if the weapon was fouled but it affects the fire rate. Again, if a faster or slower fire rate is desired, there are changes that can be made to any system that will affect it.

So the SMG in this game being a bit slower that the assault rifle doesn't contradict real-world technology at all. Direct blowback =/= fast fire rate by default, and neither does pistol caliber compared to intermediate or rifle rounds.

[TheAceOfSpodes]

Escrito originalmente por Metal:

Kind of a lot wrong with what you said. In games, SMGs are often fast firing with lower damage per round, meant to be close-quarters weapons. But cyclic rate IRL isn't just as simple as what cartridge it uses and the operating mechanism. Within in any system there are design changes that can be made to adjust it one way or the other, regardless of caliber.

Direct blowback is an easy adjustment by adding mass to the bolt carrier - the M3 grease gun SMG had a low fire rate using that idea in .45 ACP, a pistol caliber. Many WW2-era SMGs did the same thing to make the guns more controllable. By comparison, the M1919 machine guns put into aircraft were adjusted to have very high fire rates to maximize their hit potential in a short engagement time, and they using full power .30-06, a rifle caliber. The MG42 also had a famously high fire rate using 8mm Mauser.

Modern short-barrelled M4's have a very high cyclic rate since the short system puts a lot of gas at high pressure back into to bolt carrier with the AR-15's (semi) direct impingement system, but gas systems in general actually give a lot of adjustability since you can alter the length of the system and limit how much gas is put into it. Most cold war battle rifles had adjustable gas blocks, mostly to put more gas into the system for reliability if the weapon was fouled but it affects the fire rate. Again, if a faster or slower fire rate is desired, there are changes that can be made to any system that will affect it.

So the SMG in this game being a bit slower that the assault rifle doesn't contradict real-world technology at all. Direct blowback =/= fast fire rate by default, and neither does pistol caliber compared to intermediate or rifle rounds.

You're very correct, I simplified it for the non-gun nerd crowd. I was speaking in general terms. SMGs tend to have higher cyclic rates of fire than ARs and especially BRs. You can always increase bolt mass and bolt travel length to modify an SMGs rate of fire to a desired amount, but generally speaking, your average SMG will be firing faster than your average AR or BR.

But one thing that is pretty universal is that ARs and especially BRs hit significantly harder than SMGs, and the SMG in Helldivers is doing almost twice the damage per round as the ARs.

It feels like the roles are reversed, with the SMG being the slower firing, harder hitting weapon.

[Metal]

Saying things that are just wrong doesn't equal simplifying, but you also just switched your logic. Like I said, in games it's common that SMGs fire faster and have less damage per round. That's got nothing to do with real-world technology of the cartridge or operating mechanism. If you looked at all the fielded SMGs vs ARs I'm not sure what the fire rate comparison would look like, but since SMGs are using pistol calibers, it would stand to reason their intended range would be shorter, and so if they did have higher fire rates that would have been a design choice based on the intended use, not a product of being blowback. Full auto in general doesn't really lend itself to long range on an infantry weapon so I wouldn't be surprised to find high rates of fire on intermediate-caliber AR either.

"Hitting harder" in real world terms...I dunno, energy transference? There's a lot that goes into that. Velocity, which is affected by range, projectile type...I guess broadly speaking you could say that, but still there's no clearcut damage numbers and health bars irl. Within normal combat ranges, there's no round I'd be ok with getting by.

Seems like your issue goes back to the "smgs are usually faster and weaker in games."

I agree that the SMG feels like a straight upgrade to the Liberator; It's a 27% damage increase per shot, slower fire rate which helps with ammo consumption, with the same mag size. I also like using the Breaker shotgun on semi. Feels like there's no damage dropoff which might be able to differentiate them more, but there doesn't seem to be a downside to use the SMG or shotguns at what we'd normally think of in games as assault rifle range, and actually getting more damage.

[TheAceOfSpodes]

Escrito originalmente por Metal:

Saying things that are just wrong doesn't equal simplifying, but you also just switched your logic. Like I said, in games it's common that SMGs fire faster and have less damage per round. That's got nothing to do with real-world technology of the cartridge or operating mechanism. If you looked at all the fielded SMGs vs ARs I'm not sure what the fire rate comparison would look like, but since SMGs are using pistol calibers, it would stand to reason their intended range would be shorter, and so if they did have higher fire rates that would have been a design choice based on the intended use, not a product of being blowback. Full auto in general doesn't really lend itself to long range on an infantry weapon so I wouldn't be surprised to find high rates of fire on intermediate-caliber AR either.

"Hitting harder" in real world terms...I dunno, energy transference? There's a lot that goes into that. Velocity, which is affected by range, projectile type...I guess broadly speaking you could say that, but still there's no clearcut damage numbers and health bars irl. Within normal combat ranges, there's no round I'd be ok with getting by.

Seems like your issue goes back to the "smgs are usually faster and weaker in games."

I agree that the SMG feels like a straight upgrade to the Liberator; It's a 27% damage increase per shot, slower fire rate which helps with ammo consumption, with the same mag size. I also like using the Breaker shotgun on semi. Feels like there's no damage dropoff which might be able to differentiate them more, but there doesn't seem to be a downside to use the SMG or shotguns at what we'd normally think of in games as assault rifle range, and actually getting more damage.

I said nothing wrong, you're just being pedantic and cherry picking counter arguments.

Its an agreed upon fact that the majority of SMGs have higher fire rates than the majority of ARs. If you have an issue with that, then you've got an issue with reality.

There are outliers, as you pointed out. The M4 carbine as compared to the M3 grease gun. But those are OUTLIERS. SMGs (generally) have a rate of fire of around 700-900 RPM, ARs (generally) have a rate of fire 600-800. There are some ARs that shoot faster than some SMGs.

It'd be like me saying "well look at the PPSh 41 it fires faster than the M4A1 so checkmate". It makes no sense because I'm picking outliers. This is the inherent problem with categorizing and comparing firearms, there's always edge cases.

But you cannot base an argument on edge cases, which is why I'm choosing to speak in general terms.

In addition, it seems your entire worldview of "guns" is based exclusively on western models of weapons. You're leaving out a massive world of gun design.

For example, the most common firearm series in the world is the AK-47 and its iterations (AK-74, AKM, a whole list of things). They all only clock in around 600-650 RPM. Common SMGs (such as the MP5, MP7, MP9, Evo, P90) have fire rates 50-100% higher than that. Sometimes even more. They're even ~25% higher than most common US service rifles.

As for the playing dumb about the harder hitting thing. Come on. This is self-evident what this means. In all but the most extreme of edge cases, a pistol caliber cartridge will cause less damage to a target than an intermediate or full size rifle cartridge. Again, you're just being pedantic.

Long story short, you're arguing against the definitions of the words themselves. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with Mirriam-Webster and the entire firearms community collectively.

[abcd]

the superearth AI also mounts the backplate for your armor on backwards too. it's identical to the frontplate, and as such hunches helldivers into a 'shell' posture.

and irl most forces don't know what a submachine gun is or why or when they would field it. the sheer range of designs and complete lack of true purpose, besides like as a crew weapon, has made coherent design impossible.

it's intentional.

[Ishan451]

Escrito originalmente por TheAceOfSpodes:

SMGs are (almost always) faster firing and smaller caliber than an AR, due to their use of direct blowback actions (rather than gas impingement or a pistons) and pistol calibers rather than intermediate cartridges.

The non-knight SMG seems to be based on the STEN or MP34. Possibly the Erma Maschinenpistole. And their design is meant to curtail recoil and keep them compact, while full automatic. You don't need high rate of fire to be an SMG.

[TheAceOfSpodes]

Escrito originalmente por Ishan451:

Escrito originalmente por TheAceOfSpodes:

SMGs are (almost always) faster firing and smaller caliber than an AR, due to their use of direct blowback actions (rather than gas impingement or a pistons) and pistol calibers rather than intermediate cartridges.

The non-knight SMG seems to be based on the STEN or MP34. Possibly the Erma Maschinenpistole. And their design is meant to curtail recoil and keep them compact, while full automatic. You don't need high rate of fire to be an SMG.

Maybe, the side-loading magazine is very STEN or MP34. The body of the gun, however, reminds me more of a MP-9 or TMP, just a big black polymer box. And both of those guns have very quick rates of fire.

But yeah, you don't NEED a high rate of fire to make an SMG. It just feels weird in the context of modern firearms and video games.

[Ishan451]

Escrito originalmente por TheAceOfSpodes:

But yeah, you don't NEED a high rate of fire to make an SMG. It just feels weird in the context of modern firearms and video games.

Yeah, but apparently they decided to go with an SMG with a larger caliber, which is why it does more damage than the Assault Rifle. Which to be frank is a good decision. It pairs well with the Shield.

If you want a fast firing SMG you will, unfortunately, need to buy the Super Citizen edition to get access to the MP-98 Knight SMG. That one looks a bit like a cross between a FN P90 and the IWI X95.

[Metal]

Escrito originalmente por TheAceOfSpodes:

Escrito originalmente por Metal:

Saying things that are just wrong doesn't equal simplifying, but you also just switched your logic. Like I said, in games it's common that SMGs fire faster and have less damage per round. That's got nothing to do with real-world technology of the cartridge or operating mechanism. If you looked at all the fielded SMGs vs ARs I'm not sure what the fire rate comparison would look like, but since SMGs are using pistol calibers, it would stand to reason their intended range would be shorter, and so if they did have higher fire rates that would have been a design choice based on the intended use, not a product of being blowback. Full auto in general doesn't really lend itself to long range on an infantry weapon so I wouldn't be surprised to find high rates of fire on intermediate-caliber AR either.

"Hitting harder" in real world terms...I dunno, energy transference? There's a lot that goes into that. Velocity, which is affected by range, projectile type...I guess broadly speaking you could say that, but still there's no clearcut damage numbers and health bars irl. Within normal combat ranges, there's no round I'd be ok with getting by.

Seems like your issue goes back to the "smgs are usually faster and weaker in games."

I agree that the SMG feels like a straight upgrade to the Liberator; It's a 27% damage increase per shot, slower fire rate which helps with ammo consumption, with the same mag size. I also like using the Breaker shotgun on semi. Feels like there's no damage dropoff which might be able to differentiate them more, but there doesn't seem to be a downside to use the SMG or shotguns at what we'd normally think of in games as assault rifle range, and actually getting more damage.

I said nothing wrong, you're just being pedantic and cherry picking counter arguments.

Its an agreed upon fact that the majority of SMGs have higher fire rates than the majority of ARs. If you have an issue with that, then you've got an issue with reality.

...

As for the playing dumb about the harder hitting thing. Come on. This is self-evident what this means. In all but the most extreme of edge cases, a pistol caliber cartridge will cause less damage to a target than an intermediate or full size rifle cartridge. Again, you're just being pedantic.

Long story short, you're arguing against the definitions of the words themselves. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with Mirriam-Webster and the entire firearms community collectively.

No, you've moved the the goalposts yet again. Your original statement: "SMGs are (almost always) faster firing and smaller caliber than an AR, due to their use of direct blowback actions (rather than gas impingement or a pistons) and pistol calibers rather than intermediate cartridges." This is wrong.

I never said SMGs aren't generally higher fire rate weapons. In fact I said I wouldn't know how they stacked up compared to assault rifles. My point was their fire rates are a design choice of being close-range weapons, which some assault rifles are, too, and that fire rate isn't dependent on the operating mechanism. Your arguing against positions you assigned to me that I never said anything close to.

The damage discussion whatever, side point, just trying to point out out that "damage" can mean a lot of things compared to how straightforward it is in video games, and any gun can potentially kill you in one shot irl. You brought up damage in response to me because like I said, you brought up that the Helldivers 2 SMG feels different compared to SMGs in other games.

If your issue is that the SMG in this game is slower-firing than the assault rifle in this game, then that doesn't conflict with real-world technology. It's because, like you've now said in this thread, that it feels off compared to other shooters. That was all I've been trying to address.

[Metal]

For the record, saying SMGs are generally faster-firing than ARs WOULD have been simplifying your point. I wouldn't have even responded if I read that. Saying they're faster because they're blowback was weird, seems like you just wanted to throw some firearm lingo into your "ted talk"

[amaoto]

I did not a read the blocks of text outside of first post
But yeah it is weird that the Defender has a higher damage and penetration than the standard AR.
Liberator just bounces off the nursing/bile spewer head armor, yet Defender can penetrate it?

[TheAceOfSpodes]

Escrito originalmente por Metal:

For the record, saying SMGs are generally faster-firing than ARs WOULD have been simplifying your point. I wouldn't have even responded if I read that. Saying they're faster because they're blowback was weird, seems like you just wanted to throw some firearm lingo into your "ted talk"

Mechanically, direct (or some variation thereof) blowback is the faster action. Almost exclusively, the "very high" rate of fire weapons (which are single barreled and don't require electricity to operate) are, to push the definition slightly further, recoil operated. Utilizing the energy of the cartridge in a direct manner is far quicker than utilizing the gas pressure tapped from someplace further up the barrel.

For example, the MG-42 (roller locked blowback, 1200-1500 RPM), MG 34"S" (recoil operated, 1500 RPM), FAMAS (lever delayed blowback, 1500 RPM), Micro Uzi (recoil operated, 1500 RPM), MAC-10 (blowback operated, 1200 RPM), MAC-11 (blowback, 1200-1500 RPM), PPsh 41 (blowback operated, 1250 RPM).

Once again, this isn't always the case once a gun is finally finished. For example, the M3 grease gun compared to the Rikhter R-23. But the method of action itself is quicker.

Actually, here's an excellent example I just found. Once again, from the Soviet Union, because they love doing weird things with guns. In the late 1930s, famous designer Mihail Mamontov created a prototype pseudo-recoil operated gun which attempted to use the cartridge itself as a sort of gas piston, combining both blowback and gas operated in a single design.

However, the problem was that the cartridges kept rupturing and the project was dropped. In the 80s, the Soviets circled back to Mamontov's ideas, and a guy named Anatoly F. Baryshev tried to create a pseudo-recoil operated rifle.

However, the cartridges still kept rupturing. So, with modern scientific instruments they measured and recorded everything in a comparison between their prototype rifle and a similar rifle (in this case, they used the SVD due to similar barrel length and cartridge). They found that it took 5 ms for the gas tapping to begin cycling the bolt on the SVD, whereas their prototype rifle began moving in 1 ms. Five times faster.

Again, while there are many other variables involved, and you can design a slow blowback operation and a fast gas operation, mechanically speaking, blowback is the faster of the two.

This is further evidenced by the fact that a great deal of SMG design involves making the action work slower to make the rate of fire more manageable. For example, they had to swap out the bolt of the full-sized Uzi for one weighted with tungsten in the Micro Uzi to bring the rate of fire down to a manageable 1500 RPM.

[TheAceOfSpodes]

Escrito originalmente por amaoto:

I did not a read the blocks of text outside of first post
But yeah it is weird that the Defender has a higher damage and penetration than the standard AR.
Liberator just bounces off the nursing/bile spewer head armor, yet Defender can penetrate it?

Don't worry about it homie, its just gun nerd pedantic arguing. But yeah it does feel weird. Like subverted expectations in the bad way.

[Dreepa]

I agree and made the same thread some days ago.

Also, what the heck is the real life discussion here? Completely irrelevant.

SMG in games are: brrrrrrt and less damage
Assault Rifles in games are: dakkadakkadakkadakka and higher damage


Simple as that.

[TheAceOfSpodes]

Escrito originalmente por Dreepa:

I agree and made the same thread some days ago.

Also, what the heck is the real life discussion here? Completely irrelevant.

SMG in games are: brrrrrrt and less damage
Assault Rifles in games are: dakkadakkadakkadakka and higher damage


Simple as that.

I simplified and generalized something and it really really offended one of those reddit "well ackshually" types, nothing worth reading on either side, I assure you.

But yeah, it does feel weird.