Tier List of all weapons I've used thus far

[{Δ} Achilles]

S Tier: Rail Gun, Breaker
A Tier: Autocannon, Incendiary Grenades, Redeemer SMG, Grenade Launcher
B Tier: Spear, Recoilless Rifle, Defender SMG, Impact Grenades
C Tier: Both MGs, Liberator AR, AP Liberator, Jar-15, Incendiary Breaker, DMR
Bad Tier: Slug Shotgun, Peacemaker, Senator, disposable AT, explosive liberator, Knight
Garbage Tier: Flamethrower, Arc Rifle, Punisher, Frag Grenade, Smoke, Scythe, Laser Cannon, counter sniper

Reasons:
---- S Tier:
Rail Gun - Carries 20 rounds, doesn't need a backpack, very easy to use while evading, doesn't require a teammate, does good damage to everything.

Breaker - An actually functioning weapon that doesn't require several mags to kill one ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ thing.

---- A Tier:
Autocannon - Can be reloaded by yourself, does not need a crew, does solid AP and damage to just about everything, good splash. However, still far less effective than the railgun, due to requiring a backpack

Incendiary Grenades - Does what a flamethrower does but better, with pretty high instant-damage.

Redeemer SMG - The only viable sidearm, does good damage, but very very very low ammo capacity.

Grenade Launcher - High damage, high splash, decent against armored things. Just lacks ammo and has friendly fire potential.

---- B Tier:
Spear - Good at killing the things it can actually lock on, inconsistent with the lock though, and can ONLY be used against big things. Also needs a backpack and potentially crewmate.

Recoilless Rifle - Same as the Spear, but with the added benefit of being usable against anything.

Defender SMG - Better damage than the AR, can be used one handed. It's just a solid weapon. However it still takes far too many rounds to kill most of the medium enemies, making it inferior to the Breaker. It can take a full mag to kill the armored melee automatons and the warriors.

Impact Grenades - Very strong, but they are also prime team-killing tools. Mixed bag.

---- C Tier:
MG 43 - Solid armor pen, good damage. Very good at dealing with horde clear. Just directly worse than the grenade launcher, and it can't really deal with heavily armored things like the grenade launcher can.

Stalwart - Extremely high rate of fire, but almost no pen, making it directly inferior to the MG 43, but not by much. It's good at clearing hordes.

Liberator AR - It's okay. Not bad, but worse than the Defender SMG, which is weird. It takes an insane amount of ammo to down mediums, and on the higher difficulties it simply stops being viable.

AP Liberator - It's worse than the regular Liberator, despite being 'AP'. The terrible hold-burst function is a downgrade, and it just feels to do piddly damage for less ammo.

Jar 15 - I tend to call it the 'Bolter' because that's what it reminds me of, but it's no where near the power of the dark tide bolter. 15 rounds, but it often takes 2-3 shots to kill even small enemies. The recoil is difficult to control, the ammo is nonexistent, and the damage/Pen is no where near high enough to justify using it.

Incendiary Breaker - It sets stuff on fire, but unfortunately the fire is borderline worthless. Setting things on fire has, in my experience, done almost nothing. It's better to just use that ammo to kill them faster, and because it's so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ inaccurate, you are better off using the regular Breaker.

DMR - Decent against automatons, not great against anything else. It does okay damage, but you could also just use a breaker. There is very little reason to have long-ranged weapons in this game, as almost everything tries to be in your face. And at max combat distances the breaker still just does more damage.

---- Bad Tier:
Slug Shotgun - Not enough damage to justify how bad it is. Slow firing. Low ammo capacity. Just not good, it's a worse DMR.

Peacemaker - Low damage, low ammo. Not worth taking, takes far too many shots to kill things rushing you.

Senator - Low damage for how long the reload takes. Can take the same number of shots as a DMR, but you only have 6 rounds. It's just not good.

Disposable AT - With how the hordes work, you're going to be constantly getting displaced. 2 of them, provided your teammate picks one up, is not going to be enough to deal with most threats that actually need them. They do very little damage, and you simply cannot just have **two** rockets to deal with threats. Most of the time, you pick one up, and then you have to RUN, thus you only get one. It's just not worth using this over any other AT option.

Explosive Liberator - Terrible damage, slower fire rate than the regular Liberator thus making its DPS lower, while also having less ammo. It's just bad. A complete downgrade.

Knight - The only weapon in the game I struggled controlling recoil with. It's completely uncontrollable, and just does less damage than the defender SMG. It's pointless.

---- Garbage Tier:
Flamethrower - The people who say this 'works' are full of ♥♥♥♥, or playing the lower difficulties. It doesn't work. It does piddly direct damage, and the fire pools also do barely any damage at all. It has taken me MINUTES to kill 2 chargers with this garbage weapon, and it's bad at horde clear since the enemies simply walk through the fire. It's not good in choke points, especially when (if you want fire) you can just use the incendiary grenades. Low range, low damage, utter trash. If it had a CC/stun effect like the Aliens Fireteam flamethrower, then it might be good, but it doesn't, so it isn't.

Arc Rifle - Team Killer 9,000 is great at removing teammates, less so enemies. Yes it can arc to lesser enemies and kill a few in one shot. However it requires charge time, a long charge time, and in that time you could be using a rail gun to kill heavies, and a breaker to slaughter twice as many small enemies. It's not efficient, it's dangerous around teammates, and just generally pointless to have. It can take 3-5 shots to kill a normal automaton defender, (that is like 15 seconds of just click hold click hold click hold to kill a couple of enemies). That's bad.

Punisher - Low damage, low ammo count, long reload time. In a horde game this is the exact opposite of everything you could ever want. It is complete irredeemable trash.

Frag Grenade - Better at killing teammates than enemies. It does very little damage but has a massive radius, so ultimately you either need to spam them, or you're just barely touching them.

Smoke - Smoke doesn't even work. The automatons just shoot through it. Accurately, as well.

Scythe - 0 damage. It just can't kill things. It's a waste of a slot.

Laser Cannon - Slightly more than 0 damage. Still can't kill things. Waste of a slot.

Counter Sniper - 17 more damage than the DMR, for less ammo, less fire rate, and the WORST TURN RATE. It's like you're operating a turret with how slow you can aim with it. It's absolute ♥♥♥♥.

[[OTS]EchoZenLogos]

As someone who has played on higher difficulty missions (not quite level 9, but 7s and 8s) I still will argue that the Flamethrower is not a bad weapon. You seem to have had a much worse experience with it than I have - in my experience I can use a fraction of its magazine size to kill dozens of bugs in confined spaces that are charging me, firing and then forgetting as they burn to death before they reach me. It definitely needs a buff, but using "it can't kill chargers" as a reason to call it bad just feels unfair. That isn't the intended niche.

I think fire needs a buff in general, honestly. I think fire needs to slow enemies somewhat (maybe about 30% or so), do a bit more damage (especially against medium-sized elite enemies - I'm okay with it not hurting tanks), and that would be enough.

The breaker, grenade launcher, and railgun need a nerf. The Laser weapons need a buff. The other weapons mostly need just some minor tweaks as far as I can tell (the "regular" shotgun needs more damage for example to justify its existence).

Do automatons really shoot through smoke? I haven't noticed that, but I also rarely use smoke. If so that's tough to hear, but it likely will be fixed as that sounds like a bug. If smoke actually works it would be very useful against automatons because there are tons of situations where them shooting you from a distance gets you murdered before you can escape.

All in all, I hope they actually make an effort to balance the weapons and stratagems in this game a bit. There aren't many major issues, but the handful of brokenly overpowered weapons combined with the handful of impotently weak weapons (with most things just being "okay" or situational) leads to less build diversity if you want to be optimal.

[CarlTJexican]

Your opinion is objectively wrong in multiple places and it's funnier than dropping a 380mm salvo at my feet as I salute on the extract and watch everyone die. I can tell you don't leave challenging with what you think is viable or good lmao

[{Δ} Achilles]

Originally posted by Sleepy Joe Biden:

Your opinion is objectively wrong in multiple places and it's funnier than dropping a 380mm salvo at my feet as I salute on the extract and watch everyone die. I can tell you don't leave challenging with what you think is viable or good lmao

I've played Helldive many times now. I've tried all of these weapons, on multiple occasions, on various difficulties including Helldive.

[WhiteCrow]

Originally posted by {Δ} Achilles:

Originally posted by Sleepy Joe Biden:

Your opinion is objectively wrong in multiple places and it's funnier than dropping a 380mm salvo at my feet as I salute on the extract and watch everyone die. I can tell you don't leave challenging with what you think is viable or good lmao

I've played Helldive many times now. I've tried all of these weapons, on multiple occasions, on various difficulties including Helldive.

I mean, the fact you have both MG's in C is pretty funny. When's the last time you used one? Probably when you first started, and forgot how good they actually are. Yeah they're kind of boring weapons but they're amazing. They actually have decent armor pen, good range and insane RPM obviously. They're like SMG's with fat mags and good range. They just get the job done.

If you haven't used one in a while, take it in a high difficulty mission. Let me know how much easier it was.

[[OTS]EchoZenLogos]

Originally posted by WhiteCrow:

Originally posted by {Δ} Achilles:

I've played Helldive many times now. I've tried all of these weapons, on multiple occasions, on various difficulties including Helldive.

I mean, the fact you have both MG's in C is pretty funny. When's the last time you used one? Probably when you first started, and forgot how good they actually are. Yeah they're kind of boring weapons but they're amazing. They actually have decent armor pen, good range and insane RPM obviously. They're like SMG's with fat mags and good range. They just get the job done.

If you haven't used one in a while, take it in a high difficulty mission. Let me know how much easier it was.

I mean, they only put it in C tier because the weapons they put above that are overpowered or broken (mostly - some I think are just okay). Clearly they don't think MGs are weak - it's just that they are weak compared to the overpowered alternatives.

[{Δ} Achilles]

Originally posted by WhiteCrow:

Originally posted by {Δ} Achilles:

I've played Helldive many times now. I've tried all of these weapons, on multiple occasions, on various difficulties including Helldive.

I mean, the fact you have both MG's in C is pretty funny. When's the last time you used one? Probably when you first started, and forgot how good they actually are. Yeah they're kind of boring weapons but they're amazing. They actually have decent armor pen, good range and insane RPM obviously. They're like SMG's with fat mags and good range. They just get the job done.

If you haven't used one in a while, take it in a high difficulty mission. Let me know how much easier it was.

Last game I played before everyone crashed was with the Stalwart, against automatons, on like difficulty 8.

It's not horrible, I don't want to say they are bad, C-tier doesn't mean unviable. But, it means you're missing an AT weapon. Missing an AT weapon on the highest difficulties means you are putting your team at a disadvantage.

Also it's just directly worse than the nade launcher. I do like them, but they aren't great.

[BigDog]

I am not sure how many rail guns in the game but do you get it from the premium tab or the normal tab?

[{Δ} Achilles]

Originally posted by BigDog:

I am not sure how many rail guns in the game but do you get it from the premium tab or the normal tab?

It's a support weapon, a stratagem call in at level 20.

[BigDog]

Originally posted by {Δ} Achilles:

Originally posted by BigDog:

I am not sure how many rail guns in the game but do you get it from the premium tab or the normal tab?

It's a support weapon, a stratagem call in at level 20.

thank you

[{Δ} Achilles]

Originally posted by OTSEchoZenLogos:

As someone who has played on higher difficulty missions (not quite level 9, but 7s and 8s) I still will argue that the Flamethrower is not a bad weapon. You seem to have had a much worse experience with it than I have - in my experience I can use a fraction of its magazine size to kill dozens of bugs in confined spaces that are charging me, firing and then forgetting as they burn to death before they reach me. It definitely needs a buff, but using "it can't kill chargers" as a reason to call it bad just feels unfair. That isn't the intended niche.

I think fire needs a buff in general, honestly. I think fire needs to slow enemies somewhat (maybe about 30% or so), do a bit more damage (especially against medium-sized elite enemies - I'm okay with it not hurting tanks), and that would be enough.

The breaker, grenade launcher, and railgun need a nerf. The Laser weapons need a buff. The other weapons mostly need just some minor tweaks as far as I can tell (the "regular" shotgun needs more damage for example to justify its existence).

Do automatons really shoot through smoke? I haven't noticed that, but I also rarely use smoke. If so that's tough to hear, but it likely will be fixed as that sounds like a bug. If smoke actually works it would be very useful against automatons because there are tons of situations where them shooting you from a distance gets you murdered before you can escape.

All in all, I hope they actually make an effort to balance the weapons and stratagems in this game a bit. There aren't many major issues, but the handful of brokenly overpowered weapons combined with the handful of impotently weak weapons (with most things just being "okay" or situational) leads to less build diversity if you want to be optimal.

I have been repeatedly gaslit by people in steam discussions into giving the Flamethrower far too many attempts than it deserves. I must have used it 20 times in the harder difficulties in attempts to make it work. Changed my strats with it. Tried everything I could to see where people were saying 'it's useful'.

It isn't. The 'clear' against hordes is irrelevant when you could just use literally anything else. A machine gun. A grenade launcher. A breaker. Even the Liberator clears hordes faster with good aim and trigger discipline. The Flamethrower. Is. Bad.



I do not believe the breaker or the railgun needs nerfs. I think everything else needs buffs. The Breaker is the only firearm in the game that **feels** like a firearm, it **feels** like a shotgun should. The other weapons are just bad, and should be brought up.

Even if smoke worked, which it doesn't in my experience, it's made irrelevant by shields. The personal shield negates all of that 'getting shot while running' problem, and the only times I die now even on helldiver are from friendly fire, rockets, or random cannon shots.

[WhiteCrow]

Originally posted by {Δ} Achilles:

It's not horrible, I don't want to say they are bad, C-tier doesn't mean unviable. But, it means you're missing an AT weapon. Missing an AT weapon on the highest difficulties means you are putting your team at a disadvantage.

Uh, but it doesn't? Take an EAT. Super fast calldown, low cooldown, you get two. You can plop it down and grab it not much slower than calling in an orbital strike, or plop it down pre-emptively. Grab it, fire it off, pick up your MG again.

Being versatile like that is a credit to the team.

[{Δ} Achilles]

Originally posted by WhiteCrow:

Originally posted by {Δ} Achilles:

It's not horrible, I don't want to say they are bad, C-tier doesn't mean unviable. But, it means you're missing an AT weapon. Missing an AT weapon on the highest difficulties means you are putting your team at a disadvantage.

Uh, but it doesn't? Take an EAT. Super fast calldown, low cooldown, you get two. You can plop it down and grab it not much slower than calling in an orbital strike, or plop it down pre-emptively. Grab it, fire it off, pick up your MG again.

Being versatile like that is a credit to the team.

And read my tier list on the EAT. The MG isn't valuable enough to justify taking it over the other AT weaponry. By **default** the grenade launcher is versatile.

[[OTS]EchoZenLogos]

Originally posted by {Δ} Achilles:

I have been repeatedly gaslit by people in steam discussions into giving the Flamethrower far too many attempts than it deserves. I must have used it 20 times in the harder difficulties in attempts to make it work. Changed my strats with it. Tried everything I could to see where people were saying 'it's useful'.

It isn't. The 'clear' against hordes is irrelevant when you could just use literally anything else. A machine gun. A grenade launcher. A breaker. Even the Liberator clears hordes faster with good aim and trigger discipline. The Flamethrower. Is. Bad.



I do not believe the breaker or the railgun needs nerfs. I think everything else needs buffs. The Breaker is the only firearm in the game that **feels** like a firearm, it **feels** like a shotgun should. The other weapons are just bad, and should be brought up.

Even if smoke worked, which it doesn't in my experience, it's made irrelevant by shields. The personal shield negates all of that 'getting shot while running' problem, and the only times I die now even on helldiver are from friendly fire, rockets, or random cannon shots.

The flamethrower has been useful to me, so I can only agree to disagree with you on this. I think it needs a buff in any case, so we are on the same page there.

I think your idea for balancing in general isn't ideal. If only 2 or 3 weapons are brokenly strong compared to everything else - it is far more difficult to balance the game by improving the strength of everything else as opposed to just nerfing those weapons.

How could you make the pump-action shotgun balanced vs the Breaker anyway? To be as effective numerically it would need to have 3x the damage per shot of what it currently has - it would need to be able to basically instantly kill many enemies and kill a charger in a weak spot shot with just like a couple of shots. I feel like that would make the game far too easy if every weapon could do that sort of thing - the Breaker makes the game easier than I feel is reasonable on a given difficulty level. I would rather the Breaker do about 200 instead of 300 damage per shot and fire slightly slower, and that the other shotgun be buffed to maybe 400 damage or so and reload a bit faster (or maybe have a wider spread for individual shots so it can hit multiple enemies more reliably).

The Breaker lets you easily and without skill wipe out entire hordes of enemies with ease. That isn't making it **feel** like a firearm - that makes enemies trivial when using it.

The Railgun I don't really think needs much of a nerf - I would make it take slightly longer to charge and that would be fine (so it's actually a risk to use in a hectic fight).

The Grenade Launcher has so much utility that I don't know of a way to balance it besides limiting its ammo and perhaps lowering the radius of its explosions a bit. It still would need to be strong or else it would feel useless, though.

[WhiteCrow]

Originally posted by {Δ} Achilles:

Originally posted by WhiteCrow:

Uh, but it doesn't? Take an EAT. Super fast calldown, low cooldown, you get two. You can plop it down and grab it not much slower than calling in an orbital strike, or plop it down pre-emptively. Grab it, fire it off, pick up your MG again.

Being versatile like that is a credit to the team.

And read my tier list on the EAT. The MG isn't valuable enough to justify taking it over the other AT weaponry. By **default** the grenade launcher is versatile.

Man, we're just playing different games I think. You do at least realize that the EAT is MEANT to be used in tandem with another calldown weapon, right? The fire and forget then drop makes it obvious. When you need AT, it's there. Otherwise you continue using your other calldown weapon, like an MG for instance. That's versatility.

Why is the EAT even bad to you? Not enough ammo? It's not designed like that. If I had a guy in my squad mowing down all the things with an MG when needed, THEN popping out AT rounds I'd be glad. That's multi-role, with some caveats obviously. If you're just running around with an EAT on your shoulder all the time you're using it wrong.

[{Δ} Achilles]

Originally posted by WhiteCrow:

Originally posted by {Δ} Achilles:

And read my tier list on the EAT. The MG isn't valuable enough to justify taking it over the other AT weaponry. By **default** the grenade launcher is versatile.

Man, we're just playing different games I think. You do at least realize that the EAT is MEANT to be used in tandem with another calldown weapon, right? The fire and forget then drop makes it obvious. When you need AT, it's there. Otherwise you continue using your other calldown weapon, like an MG for instance. That's versatility.

Why is the EAT even bad to you? Not enough ammo? It's not designed like that. If I had a guy in my squad mowing down all the things with an MG when needed, THEN popping out AT rounds I'd be glad. That's multi-role, with some caveats obviously. If you're just running around with an EAT on your shoulder all the time you're using it wrong.

Because it's taking up the slot of something more valuable. I'd rather take an extra call in than an EAT if I want to use the MG. A sentry turret is superior in firepower output. 500kg bomb with max upgrades (you get 2) is 10,000x better than the EAT.