Do the primary mission LAST, then extract ASAP!

[Rand]

I see the same mistake being made again and again.

People running around the map on higher difficulties using zero strategy whatsoever.
They bump into the primary, or the final area of the primary mission and they destroy it without thinking.
Then all hell breaks loose and the mission is swarmed with constant patrols seemingly everywhere. It gets bad, and all the reserves get used up and the mission becomes hell and often fails due to reserves running out and a squad wipeout, where you lose all your hard-won samples even though you "succeed" on the mission.

What players too often fail to realize is that the moment you completely finish the primary mission, the game "turns up the heat" by 4 times. The patrols are now spawning in roughly 1/4 the time, which means 4x the patrols. If you can't keep them under control it turns into a real mess.

The other thing most players don't seem to realize is that just being near the extract, (whether the beacon is there, or if it's activated or not) halves the patrol time for the people there. This is multiplicative. So if the primary is finished (1/4 time) and the squad is at extract (1/2 time) it is 1/8 time per patrol. You can get a new patrol every 20 to 30 seconds or so on the higher difficulties. Because, depending on if the map had spawn bases (like bot factories or bug holes), destroying more than half of them shortens the patrol timer as well.

All this is trying to let the community know to NOT finish the primary mission until you've done everything else you want to, and then head straight to extract when you have completed it. You will save a lot of missions, samples, and headaches for all involved if you follow this very simple strategy.

Credit to the testers and the writer of the Reddit post "Let's talk about Patrols: An In Depth Analysis of Patrol Spawning Mechanics": https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bdudf3/lets_talk_about_patrols_an_in_depth_analysis_of/

[Grimthwacker]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Rand:

Credit to the testers and the writer of the Reddit post "Let's talk about Patrols: An In Depth Analysis of Patrol Spawning Mechanics": https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bdudf3/lets_talk_about_patrols_an_in_depth_analysis_of/

That's an interesting read although most people probably aren't aware of the mechanics, at least not explicitly. Explains why poorly planned late game raids on strat jammers often end in tragedy.

[Immanis]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Grimthwacker:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Rand:

Credit to the testers and the writer of the Reddit post "Let's talk about Patrols: An In Depth Analysis of Patrol Spawning Mechanics": https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bdudf3/lets_talk_about_patrols_an_in_depth_analysis_of/

That's an interesting read although most people probably aren't aware of the mechanics, at least not explicitly. Explains why poorly planned late game raids on strat jammers often end in tragedy.

Yes, Unless game director freak out and stop spawning anything, generally, when extract is open, you need to scram, even if it's not "called", spawning get crazy :)

[Aradia Megido]

be the change y0u want t0 see

ive bec0me a stealth diver just because i actually like c0mpleting missi0ns and if i see the l0bby is 0ne 0f th0se sit behind a r0ck with a heavy machinegun and supply pack 0r hardc0re larpers wh0 die 10 times al0ne "f0r dem0cracy" i just peel 0ff and actually bl0w stuff up

has led me d0wn a dark path 0n b0ts where i bring arc and supply pack with thermites as well as 500kg and strafes every single game because 0f h0w much g0d damn ♥♥♥♥ i have t0 bl0w up and sh00t by myeself n0w but i n0w kn0w all the b0t 0utp0st sub0bj main 0bj and f0rtress lay0uts did y0u kn0w alm0st all 0f them have ways t0 just jump int0 the base and stealth the 0bj? its t0tally intenti0nal l0l in fact m0st f0rts are easily s0l0ed by just climbing inside

[Malidictus]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Rand:

I see the same mistake being made again and again.

While I get where you're coming from, that mistake is on Arrowhead, not the players. Ramping up enemy spawns to "last stand" levels on finishing the main objective is just stupendously bad design. As you've already noticed, pretty much nobody knows about it because it's a counter-intuitive system - like most of this game's spawn logic. People naturally rush to finish objectives before doing side missions because that way "the mission is done" so it can't fail. Or so most people think.

But far worse than that - it completely robs the escape of any sort of uniqueness. Calling the shuttle does... nothing. Being around extraction speeds up spawns a little, but that's about it. Those massive waves of enemies meant to pressure players into their last stand? Those start as soon as the main objective is done - not when the shuttle is called. In other words, there's no reason not to call the shuttle immediately and just leave it sitting on the pad. Or worse - call the shuttle in and leave so it hovers around the pad providing fire support.

Helldivers' entire spawn logic is a mess of hidden mechanics and nonsensical decisions. Arrowhead really need to go back to the drawing board and come up with something that makes intuitive sense without requiring one to dig through Reddit posts for anecdotal information of players field-testing theories.

[StaunchStache]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Helldivers™ 2:

That is stupid design and you cant expect anyone to know that

You can absolutely expect people to have pattern recognition and think "hmm, spawns always seem to go crazy after the mission is complete, I wonder if that's intended".

And just because you don't understand the point of it doesn't mean it's "stupid design".

[Stalectos]

Opprinnelig skrevet av StaunchStache:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Helldivers™ 2:

That is stupid design and you cant expect anyone to know that

You can absolutely expect people to have pattern recognition and think "hmm, spawns always seem to go crazy after the mission is complete, I wonder if that's intended".

And just because you don't understand the point of it doesn't mean it's "stupid design".

depends on how obvious the pattern is. human pattern recognition is far from flawless and is prone to looking for the wrong things in the wrong places. the general experience I've seen is that people think the spawn logic is very random.

in practice spawn logic is kinda screwy sometimes to the point where I can definitely see why the pattern is hard to discern from observation alone. I have personally had most of my largest fights happen just due to random patrols getting reinforcements from nowhere for long periods causing what people call a forever war and I've also experienced plenty of times where basically nothing showed up after the main objective was complete and the wait for extraction was just idling mostly.

[Aradia Megido]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Helldivers™ 2:

That is stupid design and you cant expect anyone to know that

well if y0u just paid attenti0n the the game fl0w it w0uld be 0bvi0usly apparent but s0me pe0ple are hylics and c0uldnt d0 the m0st basic appraisal 0f anything that isnt immediately sh0ved in y0ur face with big text

[Grimthwacker]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Immanis:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Grimthwacker:

That's an interesting read although most people probably aren't aware of the mechanics, at least not explicitly. Explains why poorly planned late game raids on strat jammers often end in tragedy.

Yes, Unless game director freak out and stop spawning anything, generally, when extract is open, you need to scram, even if it's not "called", spawning get crazy :)

The spawning nothing at extraction is apparently controllable. There is a link in that post that describes how to do it. If the extraction point is close enough to the edge of the map and all bases are destroyed it's really easy for one person to do and if it's further away you can do it with a team effort. I just tested it on 2 missions in a row and it worked flawlessly. Full 3 minute extraction countdown and no spawns.

[Malidictus]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Stalectos:

depends on how obvious the pattern is. human pattern recognition is far from flawless and is prone to looking for the wrong things in the wrong places. the general experience I've seen is that people think the spawn logic is very random.

Can attest. I was initially convinced that the "massive spawns after objective completion" was specific to Egg Hunt missions, because that's what my experience indicated. The problem is that my experience was biased by how I played those missions. With most, I'd put the main objective off until last due to how they're distributed around the map. For eggs, I'd usually do the eggs first since they were essentially a large hive, and then clear the rest of the map. I'd be swarmed, and make the connection that it was Eggs, rather than "after main objective".

It also took me forever to piece together that "patrols" were the primary source of overwhelming enemies, not Alerts. In Helldivers, the vast majority of enemies came from chain alerts. Patrols could be frequent, but never overwhelming on their own. In Helldivers 2, alerts are ostensibly academic. Unless a large monster spawns, alerts only add a drop in the ocean of patrols towards the end of the game. However, because they're clearly announced while patrols spawning mechanics are invisible, it's easy to miss the fact that the enemies swarming you didn't come from a bug hole or a bot drop.

Some people will figure this out. Most people will see it as random and unpredictable. Counter-intuitive mechanics are bad design, and spawns in Helldivers are incredibly counter-intuitive. We need a better system.

[Eagle_of_Fire]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Rand:

I see the same mistake being made again and again.

People running around the map on higher difficulties using zero strategy whatsoever.
They bump into the primary, or the final area of the primary mission and they destroy it without thinking.
Then all hell breaks loose and the mission is swarmed with constant patrols seemingly everywhere. It gets bad, and all the reserves get used up and the mission becomes hell and often fails due to reserves running out and a squad wipeout.

What players fail to realize is that the moment you do finish the primary mission, the game "turns up the heat" by 4 times. The patrols are now spawning in roughly 1/4 the time, which means 4x the patrols. If you can't keep them under control it turns into a real mess.

The other thing most players don't seem to realize is that just being near the extract, (whether the beacon is there, or if it's activated or not) halves the patrol time for the people there. This is multiplicative. So if the primary is finished (1/4 time) and the squad is at extract (1/2 time) it is 1/8 time per patrol. You can get a new patrol every 20 seconds or so on the higher difficulties. Sometimes even less, depending on the map, because if the map had spawn bases (like bot factories or bug holes), destroying them shortens the patrol timer as well.

All this is trying to let the community know to NOT finish the primary mission until you've done everything else you want to, and then head straight to extract when you have completed it. You will save a lot of missions, samples, and headaches for all involved if you follow this very simple strategy.

Credit to the testers and the writer of the Reddit post "Let's talk about Patrols: An In Depth Analysis of Patrol Spawning Mechanics": https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bdudf3/lets_talk_about_patrols_an_in_depth_analysis_of/

The only reason why you feel like the game "ramps up the heat x4" when you finish the primary is because you left a bunch of enemies on the map by running non stop. Actually finish off your enemies and destroy the spawners on your map and you'll see how little enemies you'll have to face when you extract. Sometimes I have absolutely nothing to shoot at all during extracts...

[Svartkladd]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Grimthwacker:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Immanis:

Yes, Unless game director freak out and stop spawning anything, generally, when extract is open, you need to scram, even if it's not "called", spawning get crazy :)

The spawning nothing at extraction is apparently controllable. There is a link in that post that describes how to do it. If the extraction point is close enough to the edge of the map and all bases are destroyed it's really easy for one person to do and if it's further away you can do it with a team effort. I just tested it on 2 missions in a row and it worked flawlessly. Full 3 minute extraction countdown and no spawns.

Yep, it saved me a dive when drills failed to arrive and we collected all samples & stuff from map waiting for timer to run out. Literally standing between map edge and landing pad just stopped all spawning, which resumed when I moved out to board, but it was too late for them roaches.
On the other hand, in some missions I've noticed it didn't work even when all bases were cleared - enemy kept spawning near map edge; maybe it was due to fact that I took position between edge and pad after spawning already started.

Btw, if you dive solo or in proper team, quickly doing main objective, calling in shuttle and then letting it work as aerial support platform while clearing rest of stuff is totally fun :)

[Sylpheed]

The game is already a joke in terms of difficulty since last update- may as well always do the primary first to get some kind of challenge.

[TamTroll]

Extraction is optional, the mission is not.

By completeting the main objective first, you ensure it's impossible for the mission to fail.

[Netsa]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Chaos:

Opprinnelig skrevet av JPM:

Prime example are the first 2 comments, especially the second one. Give up bro, just play with friends or go solo.

I am SOOO sorry that I don't enjoy running around backtracking in a mostly empty map, and just engage whatever objective closest to me for MY entertainment.

So So sorry about that frfr.

^
I ditto this. The more I play the game, the less I care about meta strategy. I do have reasons for that, though.

Sprinting all over the map, especially when I'm not wearing light armor (which I basically can't in high level bots), is not particularly fun. I don't care about enemy spawns unless you can prove to me that the mission would actually be completed faster if I skipped main objectives first. Meaning, the additional backtracking has to make up for the lower enemy spawns.

In the meantime, I'm assuming that simply going in a circle is the fastest clear on average.

There's also the separate issue of random teams that are already having issues with the base spawn speed. If reinforcements are depleting before we even get to a main objective, I really want to rush the objectives first because a full clear may or may not be in the cards at all.

I was on one team in around D8 yesterday where I entered the game and reinforcements were already at 0 with barely a single outpost done. Myself and two other guys were able to clear the map regardless, because I've learned that randoms are often daredevils and care way more about clearing than they do about extract.

If you are that good, I congratulate you, but personally, if the team is struggling, I would really rather get everyone out than watch them quit the game while the rest of us run around for 30+ minutes doing a full clear.

[Mega]

"What are the effects of completing the Primary Objective?
Completion of the Primary Objective has by far the biggest impact on the frequency of Enemy Patrol spawns. As soon as you complete the Primary Objective, the Threshold gets multiplied by 0.275 meaning you are receiving Patrols almost 4 times as often. Using our Baseline value of 240 seconds, this gets reduced all the way to 66 seconds."

https://old.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1bdudf3/lets_talk_about_patrols_an_in_depth_analysis_of/