What's wrong with Laser Weapons, is there a point to them?

[Zeromentor]

Though, this is mostly about the Las-5 and Las-7 (Scythe and Dagger, beam weapons) we can also include the Las-16 Sickle for comparisons.

What is the point of the Scythe and Dagger? As far as damage is concerned, they lack damage per second of similar weapons, for example:

The Redeemer, another full auto pistol, does over 1,000 damage per second, firing roughly 18 rounds a second. The Dagger does a pathetic 150. Even the standard Peacemaker can beat that in 3 bullets, which it can easily fire in roughly 1 second (depending on how fast you pull the trigger).

The Scythe also lacks damage per second, at a pitiful 300 damage per second it is at the rock bottom of damage per second, beaten only by the Dagger in that regard. Compared to the Sickle, the other "Laser Rifle" it does less than half the DPS and overheats faster, reducing usefulness considerably. Other rifles, such as the Liberator, or the SMG Defender, easily out DPS this Rifle. The only time it seems to have any real useful quality is when you summon the Guard Dog that's equipped with it, and only because it can fire for well over 30 seconds before it stops, something players just can not do.

Does the "Beam" tag do anything extra, besides actually tagging the weapon as firing a beam?

How could we fix them? Well, obviously one idea would be to increase the damage as the weapon overheats. Another would be to have it 'melt' enemy armor as damage is applied over time, making it more useful as a support weapon. Or perhaps have them apply a Fire affect, similar to the Flamethrower or Incindiary Shotgun, though I think the damage would possibly still be too low compared to other weapons.

Do these two weapons do something special? Interact with other weapons and become more useful? Or are they doomed to remain a waste of medals?

[Alice]

They're kinda bad against bugs for th sheer volume of them, but against bots, going for consistent headshots, has about the same time to kill as the basic liberator.

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Zeromentor:

How could we fix them?

Nothing to fix..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw_ocG_l-SM

[I3lackI2ogue]

laser weapons with proper firing discipline have infinite ammo, they are not burst weapons they are for longevity, proven by the fact the biggest damage laser (Quasar Cannon) has the longest cooldown.

i agree though they should have another quirk to make using them more fun, like the Heat tag on the gun should not only make the gun susceptible to environment, it should also give a damage/armor pen bonus to the spot you are shooting, which can work with your squadmates weapons too.

[Chaos]

Non.
Beam laser weapon have always been mid, even in the first game.
But somehow they manage to make it worst here.

Granted it have it uses, the inf. ammo and low recoil make it a decent option for bots head hunting...and that's about it.

[Zeromentor]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Originally posted by Zeromentor:

How could we fix them?

Nothing to fix..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw_ocG_l-SM

To be fair, I didn't watch the whole video. But early on he states that the Laser weapons are to kill "Chaff" enemies. Guess what does they equally well or much faster? Liberators, Defenders, Stalwarts and Machineguns (latter two compared to the Laser Cannon).

In the end, these Laser Beam weapons are just easily out performed by similar purpose weapons. Yes, the Scythe can stay on target and slowly headshot a Devastator, but it does have horizontal sway built in and needs the player to crouch to get the most effective performance. Know what else can do that in that same style? Liberator. Or even the Liberator Penetrator. Heck, even the Defender can do it, and it also allows you to run away at a full run while firing, or hold a briefcase of codes or carry and use a ballistic shield. Not to mention they ALL do more damage.

And while the Laser Cannon is in an okay position, it doesn't justify the shortcomings and failings of the Scythe and Dagger.

[PsiRedEye22]

Originally posted by Zeromentor:

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Nothing to fix..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw_ocG_l-SM

To be fair, I didn't watch the whole video. But early on he states that the Laser weapons are to kill "Chaff" enemies. Guess what does they equally well or much faster? Liberators, Defenders, Stalwarts and Machineguns (latter two compared to the Laser Cannon).

In the end, these Laser Beam weapons are just easily out performed by similar purpose weapons. Yes, the Scythe can stay on target and slowly headshot a Devastator, but it does have horizontal sway built in and needs the player to crouch to get the most effective performance. Know what else can do that in that same style? Liberator. Or even the Liberator Penetrator. Heck, even the Defender can do it, and it also allows you to run away at a full run while firing, or hold a briefcase of codes or carry and use a ballistic shield. Not to mention they ALL do more damage.

And while the Laser Cannon is in an okay position, it doesn't justify the shortcomings and failings of the Scythe and Dagger.

"I didn't watch more than the beginning, but I'm pretty sure I'm right anyways".

[✰N0ni✰]

Mission longevity and sustainability. At most you'll only need to resupply stims/grenades, if you do overheat them (and there are moments where it may be necessary), you can just pick up an ammo box which are scattered at most if not all points of interest and give extra resupply to whoever on your team needs it giving them more uptime on whatever they're using.

Are they the best in damage? No. Are they okay for what they are? Yes. Fun? Yes, especially if doing a thematic laser build. Sickle is the exception, it's great all around.

[Zeromentor]

Originally posted by PsiRedEye22:

Originally posted by Zeromentor:

To be fair, I didn't watch the whole video. But early on he states that the Laser weapons are to kill "Chaff" enemies. Guess what does they equally well or much faster? Liberators, Defenders, Stalwarts and Machineguns (latter two compared to the Laser Cannon).

In the end, these Laser Beam weapons are just easily out performed by similar purpose weapons. Yes, the Scythe can stay on target and slowly headshot a Devastator, but it does have horizontal sway built in and needs the player to crouch to get the most effective performance. Know what else can do that in that same style? Liberator. Or even the Liberator Penetrator. Heck, even the Defender can do it, and it also allows you to run away at a full run while firing, or hold a briefcase of codes or carry and use a ballistic shield. Not to mention they ALL do more damage.

And while the Laser Cannon is in an okay position, it doesn't justify the shortcomings and failings of the Scythe and Dagger.

"I didn't watch more than the beginning, but I'm pretty sure I'm right anyways".

"I literally didn't spend 32 minutes watching him ramble on about how much he likes lasers and clubs, but I did click on his links to certain parts in his video where he states what each weapon is good for, how to make them better, and what he considers fun instead of being the best. HOW DARE I."

-Fixed it for you.

Also, still lacks damage and potential usage of other weapons. Low DPS, low Alpha, have to stop firing to cool down for prolonged periods of time compared to reloading a firearm, limited damage potential over time creates issues with 'chaff' enemies swarming you, and nearly completely worthless against armor foes outside of small niche uses (Hulk's back, Devastator's Head)...

Go on?

[Sarnath]

scythe and dagger need a big time buff

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Zeromentor:

Guess what does they equally well or much faster? Liberators, Defenders

And the damage output is balanced against the infinite ammo potential and no damage fall off with near infinite range.

Originally posted by Zeromentor:

Also, still lacks damage and potential usage of other weapons. Low DPS, low Alpha, have to stop firing to cool down for prolonged periods of time compared to reloading a firearm, limited damage potential over time creates issues with 'chaff' enemies swarming you, and nearly completely worthless against armor foes outside of small niche uses (Hulk's back, Devastator's Head)...

Go on?

Video addresses all of that and provides TTK tables and usage tips.

[PVT.Blueberry]

scythe and dagger are a pile of crap. anyone who uses them prolly plays on medium still. The dagger is the worst weapon in the game most likely in terms of dps , followed right after by the awful primary scythe.

dagger is 5 dmg a tick, and scythe is 10 a tick. they kill very very slowly

SICKLE ON THE OTHER HAND BEST PRIMARY

[Prince-Nyan]

Laser weapons have 2-3/10 of the damage of any other weapons, however it's likely the result of an oversight. Example for the Dagger, 150 dmg/s where's the Redeemer is 60 dmg with 1100 rpm, that makes it 18 rounds/s for 1080 dmg/s.
Likely laser weapons are suppose to have x2-3 the current damage, but somebody misunderstood the damage application isn't the same, so 150/s isn't more than 60 per round.

Reason why they're good on bots, is due to bots having virtually zero health on the head. That's not a reflection of the quality of laser weapons, but more so bot's inherit weakness. Hopefully while we only have access to bugs, who don't have the bots weakness, somebody realises the mistake on these weapons and does a passover to make sure each laser is dealing the intended damage.

[Key]

No, they don't have a point, they're lasers, not spears.

Silly helldivers. Pointy lasers.

[The_Mess]

The Sickle is excellent on bot levels, where you're usually relying on support weapons to deal with medium to heavy armour, plus all of them bar the Quaser do heat damage, which ignores armour. And it's a good choice on bug missions simply due to the fact you can not run out of ammo with proper play.

Sure the beam weapons don't seem to be that great, but they can still work and I've even seen the heavy laser used successfully in level 7 bot missions to solid effect. Just relies on you using your brain with them. Besides, the laser guardian drone is stupidly effective in bot missions to the point it's usually a must have.

[Zeromentor]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Originally posted by Zeromentor:

Guess what does they equally well or much faster? Liberators, Defenders

And the damage output is balanced against the infinite ammo potential and no damage fall off with near infinite range.

Originally posted by Zeromentor:

Also, still lacks damage and potential usage of other weapons. Low DPS, low Alpha, have to stop firing to cool down for prolonged periods of time compared to reloading a firearm, limited damage potential over time creates issues with 'chaff' enemies swarming you, and nearly completely worthless against armor foes outside of small niche uses (Hulk's back, Devastator's Head)...

Go on?

Video addresses all of that and provides TTK tables and usage tips.

Do be a dear and list those here, because looking at it, with perfect aim on a moving target's head or weakpoint during combat it took around 1 second per 'chaff' target, and much more damage other larger foes (7 seconds for a Brood Warrior, right?) compared to a single bullet, or 2, per target, or 3 seconds of firing.

What? Used aimbot to make sure you never miss the weakpoint? Is that the goal here?

These weapons are effective enough to kill enemies. Relatively speaking, they are general worse than ALL other weapons. That's the problem. Everything does it better, the vast majority of the time. And you know what I don't have to do? Wait 8 seconds for the dagger to cooldown, when I can pop a new magazine into my Redeemer and mow down another dozen little bugs, or blast through chainsaws running me down.