Too many enemies for 2 players?

[Jelkan]

Has anyone else noticed that when playing with 2 players, enemy quantity feels overwhelming? I swear it feels like Difficulty 7 with 2 players is much harder than Helldive with 4 players now. I usually have 0-2 deaths on Helldive with 4 players, but have 4+ deaths on D7 with 1-2 players ever since the patch that increased patrols -- and I often fail to even extract. But I don't think the patrol increase explains how different this feels compared to before the patch. The enemy quantity is brutal and overwhelming now.

Maybe just a skill issue? Note I've been playing primarily vs terminids, so I'm not sure if Automatons feel the same.

Edit: New post claims you get 100% of patrol count no matter the # of players. The patch was supposed to be an increase from 17% to 25% (of what a 4 player team sees) while solo and presumably increased to 50% with 2 players. If true this explains it.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/553850/discussions/0/4358998952355596711/

[SensHey]

If im not mistaken there are in fact more enemies when playing solo or without a full squad

[Sk[A]rMo'Ry2012]

D7 is ideal for duos. Just dont catch unneeded patrols!

[Sir Smite]

The upped the amount of patrols for squads with less than a full team. It's an annoying change and one that's been regularly brought up.

[That person]

I think the team is greater than the sum of its parts
1 person is not 25% of a team when alone
Extra players to watch your back, do things simultaneously, and cooperate with, are just as valuable as an extra gun on deck
So if a solo player is worth 25% when alone, then a team would be worth well over 100% when working together
When a solo quarter of a team gets a full quarter of a team's worth of spawn, despite thier value and capability is less than a quarter of what a full teams value and capabilities would be in relative circumstances, and the solo player will struggle
A solo player is worth less than 25% of a teams value without the team
A duo is worth less than 50% of a teams value without the rest of the team (though not as bad as solo)
And so on
I play a lot of solo and duo with my rl mates and it's busy these days

[Jelkan]

Originally posted by Sir Smite:

The upped the amount of patrols for squads with less than a full team. It's an annoying change and one that's been regularly brought up.

The patrol change was't that huge though, iirc. Something like from 17% to 25% for single player. Do you think that explains the entire difference in enemy quantity? I feel like the difference I've noticed is more significant than just some extra patrols. But maybe it's having a snowball effect that I didn't consider.

[LeftIsBest-James]

The secret nerf that smaller groups used to enjoy have been removed.
before for Solos: 1/6 the spawnrate of a 4-man team
after for Solos: 1/4 the spawnrate of a 4-man team

it suggests that for a 2-man tesam, it would be 50% spawn rate of a 4-man team.
The difficulty is now exactly proportional to the number of players in a team.

[Raynn von Valancius]

Level 7 is great for duos. You just have to be smart about what you engage and always break contact using your air strikes or turrets to give space. Honestly, most of the time teams get into craziness is because we get drawn in with all the explosions and chaos.

Which is understandable. Most of us didn't buy this title wanting to run and stealth around like GR Wildlands. We came here to blow ♥♥♥♥ up.

[Sir Smite]

Originally posted by Jelkan:

Originally posted by Sir Smite:

The upped the amount of patrols for squads with less than a full team. It's an annoying change and one that's been regularly brought up.

The patrol change was't that huge though, iirc. Something like from 17% to 25% for single player. Do you think that explains the entire difference in enemy quantity? I feel like the difference I've noticed is more significant than just some extra patrols. But maybe it's having a snowball effect that I didn't consider.

Whatever the case is, it's huge enough that my usually more relaxed solo D3 credit farm runs are now packed with an almost non-stop stream of patrols.

[Phier]

Its a skill issue. I two man 7 bots but its expected to die a few more times two manning. Two manning you have to play the spawns more, and know the mechanics (which are up on youtube). One thing about two manning is you don't putz around after main objectives are done, you will get crushed by numbers, you do the secondaries, do the MO, and GTFO.

[Aethrys]

Originally posted by SensHey:

If im not mistaken there are in fact more enemies when playing solo or without a full squad

You are mistaken. Each diver gets 1/4 the patrol spawns of a full squad. Duos have half.

[KingOfFriedChicken]

Originally posted by SensHey:

If im not mistaken there are in fact more enemies when playing solo or without a full squad

more per person technically i do believe but it scales by 25% per person i think they said after the patched it, so it should feel roughly the same but it doesn't lol

[Logen Neuf-Doigts]

try to rely on gimmick combos , like one guy has emp mortars or strike and one napalm or gas , one guy has a recoiless rifle and the other an amr / mg / railgun so he can take the additionnal backpack when you can call again support weapon and do the fast reload thing to kill bile titans and chargers on the fly , one guy has stun grenades and the other incendiary , those kind of simple tactics are easy to use with just 2 people to coordinate and very effective

[alex.vagni]

yes

[Sokaku]

Originally posted by Jelkan:

Originally posted by Sir Smite:

The upped the amount of patrols for squads with less than a full team. It's an annoying change and one that's been regularly brought up.

The patrol change was't that huge though, iirc. Something like from 17% to 25% for single player. Do you think that explains the entire difference in enemy quantity? I feel like the difference I've noticed is more significant than just some extra patrols. But maybe it's having a snowball effect that I didn't consider.

It went from 16% to 25%, which isn't a 9% increase in the number of enemies faced, but rather a 55% increase.

IMO they swung the bar too far back. If 4 players face 4x the number of enemies that a single player faces then they will have an easier time dealing with the threat than a single player against 1/4 of the # of enemies. At face value 4x players is 4x firepower but a well balanced team can carry more options in their combined load-out suited to different threats that a single player has available.

Against 4 players, the enemy attention will be split across the 4, meaning players can flank and hit exposed weakpoints against enemies that are focused on someone else. (Such as the back of a Hulk) Players can also focus-fire key threats which are just as strong as what a solo player has to deal with. They can also keep up sustained fire against incoming forces where a solo player needs to break off to reload. When something like a factory strider or bile titan shows up, a team of 4 will likely encounter them more often, but not always 4x as many appearing at a given moment. A solo player might face fewer enemies overall, but 100% of the enemies will be fixated on them.

To see roughly how fair the changes have been, we would need to look at the average kill counts and mission completion times for solo vs. pair vs. 4 player teams. It's a bit difficult to compare completion times for 3-4 player teams since they will often split up meaning the mission should be completed faster, but someone were to test cases where the 4 players stick together for the most part that would be more comparable with a solo/duo game.

From my own experiences with solo and 4 player games in the more mid-difficulty range there is no comparison after the patch. Solo takes a lot longer to complete (often not visiting many, if any POIs) and often an absolute fuster-cluck at extraction. The 4 player matches at the same difficulty are a much simpler affair. Players do get taken out if they stray off on their own or from mishaps with stratagems or stray effects like fire. But especially at extraction you can see the difference. With four players we can much more easily contain the constant inflow of patrols with the extra stratagem diversity and concentrated firepower.

I think balancing it won't be an easy task. Rather than just looking at numbers (frequency & strength of patrols and reinforcement) as a ratio to the # of players, I think it might also need to look at how reinforcements work where it considers the total # of enemies in the vicinity before a reinforcement is called. Maybe the game already does this, but IMO that needs to be tuned to avoid perpetual death loops. Ultimately players may need to prioritize disengaging from a fubar situation and coming back once things calm down rather than getting caught in a loop of trying to save a lost situation. (Something much easier to do with bots than bugs)

[Jelkan]

Apparently this. If true, this explains why things felt so different. This thread claims they tested and found they removed all scaling, and you get 100% of patrols no matter the player count.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/553850/discussions/0/4358998952355596711/