If we buff DMR's (and we should) then AMR needs to be buffed too

[Daddy Kaneki]

Think about it.

The issue with the AMR is that it's a DAMN good DMR, but it's in the support slot, so you're giving up *a lot* in order to have higher range and some limited anti-heavy capability. There are so many support weapons that you can use that are just generally better, more versatile, or just stronger overall.

DMR's *do* need a buff, but the one and only problem with buffing them is that they are most certainly going to step on the toes of the AMR.

So, I propose:

Buff DMR's overall

Buff AMR to do more Critical Damage so that skillful usage of the weapon is more rewarded

This way, the AMR can still feel like a high powered semi automatic rifle while also carving out its own niche via precision damage against heavy armor. Also fix the scope bug obviously.

It should still take two eyeshots to kill a Hulk as I believe this is fair and balanced (because why use something like the Spear or Recoilless if you can just oneshot a hulk's eye with some precise aim?) but I still feel like there is some room to buff the AMR's critical damage without oneshotting a Hulk's eye. Alternatively, if there's not enough room to buff its critical damage, we can buff its armor piercing potential instead, so in a pinch you can shoot important components off of heavier enemies using precision that other support weapons just cannot be executed with.

I fully feel that this will help carve out a stronger, more well-defined niche for the AMR not only in comparison to other support weapons, but DMR's as well.

[G-Yuki]

All the accuracy weapons need a better ADS nearly every single one of them don't match the cross hair even at short range. Also some of them have way too much sway while crouched and prone.

[Midas]

I think the only weapon that really is overlapping with the AMR is the counter-sniper. The Adjudicator very clearly wants to be an automatic weapon and just needs a bit more magazine size and maybe a small recoil reduction, and the normal diligence is mostly fine, beyond being a victim of the game's overall poor scope visuals.

The counter-sniper, though, is basically just an AMR as a primary, and therefore always needs to be worse than the AMR overall, but needs to justify being a primary, in which case I think it really just needs more ammo. A 20 round mag alone might make it viable as an AMR-lite for players who want that sniper playstyle without committing a special weapon to it.

edit: Actually, a really cool buff to consider for some of the marksmen rifles, especially the counter-sniper where it's already competing with the AMR, is to make it silenced.

[Daddy Kaneki]

Originally posted by Hero Unit:

Good point actually. Once DMRs are buffed the gap between DMRs and AMR closes, which leaves less of a niche for the AMR to fill.

Exactly my thoughts.

[Sainray]

the eruptor is the DMR u have but not the DMR u want. and the AMR is the DMR u need.
rename AMR to DMR and make it primary slot. This will make everything better.
current AMR and railgun isn't as advertised... no significant anti armour at all, rework or just drop all together. just say the bugs ate it.

[Van]

Originally posted by G-Yuki:

All the accuracy weapons need a better ADS nearly every single one of them don't match the cross hair even at short range. Also some of them have way too much sway while crouched and prone.

In a way, it's realistic since we have to take-account the barrel fire. On the other hand, even IRL, most shooters will zero in their sights so it's not offset.

[Elmdor]

There's nothing wrong with DMR stepping on the toes of the AMR. In fact it's probably better that way. All the support weapons that don't really target heavy armor could combo with the DMR's so you'd have a balanced build still.

[Midas]

This thread reminded me to actually give all the marksmen rifles and AMR another shot and it reminds me that the problem goes way, way deeper than just the balance of the weapons themselves. The fact of the matter is that the game is completely antithetical to the entire 'marksman' playstyle.

Missions: Typically sniping is about patience, timing and precision, but in this game you're always on the clock without exception, and if you're stopping to go prone and carefully remove a bunch of enemies, you're wasting time compared to the guy with a shotgun/explosive/automatic weapon that's just going to charge in, kill them just as fast, and be able to loot everything and move on before you even catch up.

Visibility: Most of the planets are so foggy that you're lucky if you can make full use of the range of your pistol, never mind a sniper rifle or marksmen rifle. There is nothing you can do about this either, no visual-enhancing gear you can take, no stratagem to clear adverse weather, you're just screwed on drop if the weather is bad and you made the mistake of equipping to be a sniper.

Stealth: While stealth exists, it's terrible stealth for a sniper, because your shots will always draw attention to you, and no matter how much you carefully clear and cover your flank, random patrols will spawn behind you and move towards you while you're tunnel-visioned on a target. You have to basically have 360 spacial awareness at all times, and be able to fight in any direction at all times, and none of these things are conducive to long range marksmen combat, which is about focusing on an area to remove targets with precision, or provide cover to allies.

Support equipment: Basically non-existent. You can get enhanced radar as a booster, but it's still not long enough even with the ship upgrade to justify the range you want to be engaging at. As mentioned above, there's nothing to help with visibility, no infrared/NVG, nothing that makes you any better at finding targets than any other player. Even the one thing that, in theory, should be great for snipers, the jetpack, is a terrible piece of gear that will only let you maybe climb up the smaller rocks for a vantage point, which often just leaves you vulnerable and you'll have to abandon it in a moment anyways, potentially taking damage on the way down.

Team support: You can't laser-designate targets, so even if you want to fight from long range, all your stratagems are still limited to how far you can throw, leaving you effectively unable to support your team with call-ins, orbitals, or airstrikes if you're too far away.

So even if they improved the marksmen rifles, they still aren't really worth taking if their role isn't worth using. Something else will always do the same job better, and be more versatile. They would need to add and change so much for a sniper to be able to be as useful in these kinds of missions as most other mid/close-range builds.

[Daddy Kaneki]

Originally posted by Midas:

<snip>

All good points.

Regarding the inability to effectively use stratagems or laser-designating targets from a range: I feel like this should remain if sniper was ever reinforced as a role at the design level, because it would allow for a compromising tradeoff. But in every other regard you're right; Jetpack needs to be better at vertical mobility, patrols need to not path INTO the direction of a stationary helldiver (near/generally toward is fine, just not INTO you) and helmets that provide toggleable night and thermal vision modes would go a long way to reinforcing Sniper as a role in this game.

[Daddy Kaneki]

Originally posted by Midas:

<snip>

Regarding stealth: I think it's fine that killing too many enemies in one location too quickly will make them automatically know where you are. When I play a close-range stealth playstyle, I can knock a couple goons out with the revolver and they won't know where I am, but if I kill two or three while they're all suspicious, they go on full alert and know what's going on. I feel like this is balanced. After all, it would be dumb and boring if an entire outpost could be cleared of enemies basically for free. Snipers need to have some drawbacks to the playstyle and I don't think the inability to laser-designate stratagems is enough of a drawback.

[Midas]

Originally posted by 🌙Zandik🌙:

Originally posted by Midas:

<snip>

Regarding stealth: I think it's fine that killing too many enemies in one location too quickly will make them automatically know where you are. When I play a close-range stealth playstyle, I can knock a couple goons out with the revolver and they won't know where I am, but if I kill two or three while they're all suspicious, they go on full alert and know what's going on. I feel like this is balanced. After all, it would be dumb and boring if an entire outpost could be cleared of enemies basically for free. Snipers need to have some drawbacks to the playstyle and I don't think the inability to laser-designate stratagems is enough of a drawback.

The drawback is that all you're contributing at that point is kills, which is usually not the objective. Also if you're hanging back and shooting, you probably won't be able to keep up to be doing it in each fight, the group will get too far ahead.

[Bob]

Nothing wrong with the regular diligence rifle, as it is a decent weapon against both factions. Counter sniper good against bots while being trash on bugs. New rifle is overall bad I suppose.

Also, no need to buff AMR.. it is an absolute monster right now. Especially since the 30% damage buff they did, despite it already being powerful. It is second only to autocannon on bot side, and while not practical on bugs, it still absolutely wrecks medium units of all kinds and is not terrible at getting chargers to critical.

[Rebel]

People saying AMR has no significant anti-armor capabilities are hardcore clowning.

Kills scout striders frontally, destroys devastators (2 shots, or 1 headshot), kills tank and turret vents in less than a mag, 2 taps Hulks in the head, kills gunships, and damages factory striders in weak points.

Can literally kill all automaton units straight up. No primary weapon deals vehicle damage (can't damage Hulk eye sockets), you're not taking Eruptor or Counter-Sniper to kill Hulks. It's already a side-grade to the autocannon. What, you want it to kill devastators with 1 bodyshot? Hulks with 1 headshot?