This might be an unpopular take but...

[IceBite]

I don't like the armor completely negating everything but a few weapons.
Especially on higher difficulty, you are forced to take ♥♥♥♥ that can penetrate armor.

There's so many chargers that you can not reliably circle around one and shoot its non-armored parts. There's so many scout walkers that you can't reliably shoot out the drivers. Not to mention bile titans and tanks.

Tanks basically need an autocannon or railgun or a stratagem (which is fine, but there's so many on helldive that just running stratagems ain't even viable) and then we have bile titans. nearly impossible to kill with anything but a stratagem. Or you run the railgun and one shot it, because that weapon needs to be so broken.

And don't get me started on Napalm and Gas, they are both so useless that i wonder what the point of it is. It takes too long to even kill basic enemies, all the while they can still attack. Meanwhile a single clusterbomb does the same thing but wipes them instantly.

There's no point in running a machinegun or flamethrower or arc thrower or anything but a railgun or autocannon as a support weapon. Because you can't do ♥♥♥♥ without them.

And honestly... it makes the game boring to me, i don't like being forced into a meta. Let me run my pump shotgun and revolver and be useful.

TL;DR: Armor system enforces meta. And it's boring.

[Ice-Nine]

Originally posted by Quentin Quarantino:

And honestly... it makes the game boring to me, i don't like being forced into a meta.

That's not what meta means.

But for what it's worth, I would find the game equally boring if all guns did the same thing.

[Brother Solarius]

Personally, I stick between 5 and 6 beyond that, I don't have any fun. It's a shame about the resources I can't gather, but at least I can play with whatever I want

[Mountain King]

Originally posted by Ice-Nine:

Originally posted by Mountain King:

Breaker is good but it's as good as the other weapons should be. They obviously put zero consideration into the stats of primaries before just shoving them out the door because some guns just have worse stats in every single category than other guns that unlock before them. Once they buff other weapons to make them worth using, the Breaker will just be one good option of many instead of the clear frontrunner.

I don't know why people think Breaker is the clear frontrunner. I have to assume they're just copypasta'ing some streamer or whatever.

Liberator is better than Breaker, though not by much. The two of them are the only primaries worth using. Both are good weapons to bring. But Liberator is still better in terms of kills vs supply.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you used the wrong name for the weapon you're talking about because the friggin SMG is a flat upgrade on the Liberator lol.

[Sailor Gloom]

someone recommended continuous shots chipping away armor and I like that idea. Let me be a 2 braincell machine gunner and 900rpm my way to victory.....eventually

[Khloros]

Its because scaling beyond level 6 sucks.
Level 7 feels like the stopping point of when the game remains "fun." Level 8 and 9 are jsut not fun because all they do is spam as much heavy and medium armor as they possibly can.

If scaling worked where they just spawned MORE things in general and not just convert it all to medium and heavy armored units it might be better. But right now 8 and 9 are just not fun, they are mindbogglingly tedious.

[lockwoodx]

high armor enemies being a pressure point = more room for devs to come up with creative solutions such as alien tech etc

[Elysion]

this is why everyone uses the railgun. The game expects you to have anti armor. It expects you to have more anti armor than you can bring in airstrikes or eagle strikes. There is no anti armor primary. This means your special MUST be able to deal with chargers and hulks quickly because there are multiple of them accompanied by various other enemies, so you need to take them out within a few seconds.

This limits you to railgun and only railgun. You can use EAT on lower difficulties where they are rarer, but once many can show up simultaneously you really need railgun.

I think the solution here is to add primaries, secondaries, maybe grenades, that can deal with armor. Any loadout needs good anti-armor and good anti-trash. A lot of specials are good and fun to use vs trash this means you could take a primary to deal with armor and it would open up loadout potential

[Khloros]

Originally posted by JG Wentsworth:

high armor enemies being a pressure point = more room for devs to come up with creative solutions such as alien tech etc

While fair. Its not good to balance around that idea when the game is out and its miserable to deal with currently.

[Ice-Nine]

Originally posted by Mountain King:

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you used the wrong name for the weapon you're talking about because the friggin SMG is a flat upgrade on the Liberator lol.

If you have bad aim, sure.

Otherwise, the Liberator has a better fire rate and the damage difference doesn't matter at all.

[Khloros]

Originally posted by Elysion:

this is why everyone uses the railgun. The game expects you to have anti armor. It expects you to have more anti armor than you can bring in airstrikes or eagle strikes. There is no anti armor primary. This means your special MUST be able to deal with chargers and hulks quickly because there are multiple of them accompanied by various other enemies, so you need to take them out within a few seconds.

This limits you to railgun and only railgun. You can use EAT on lower difficulties where they are rarer, but once many can show up simultaneously you really need railgun.

I think the solution here is to add primaries, secondaries, maybe grenades, that can deal with armor. Any loadout needs good anti-armor and good anti-trash. A lot of specials are good and fun to use vs trash this means you could take a primary to deal with armor and it would open up loadout potential

I think the better solution is to make it so rather hten higher difficulties just swapping out all their spawns with heavy and medium armor you just get teh same spawn ratios as say, hard difficulty or even extreme, but with jsut more of them.

So rather then seeing them drop like 3 hulks, 2 tanks, and a full drop pod of walkers. You see them drop more things like 1 hulk, 1 tanks, 5 walkers, but like 30-40 infentry/light armor guys on higher difficulties this way it makes it so weapons taht are designed to deal with hordes are still viable and and a purpose.

[LunaticMethod]

I LIKE the armor mechanics, it's just... yeah. It works way better when you're not getting spammed with outrageous amounts of it.

What about non-lethal unarmored weakpoints? Eyes/Sensors to reduce accuracy, treads/fuel lines to slow down a tank, etc. Even if you can't bust the thing, you can still do *something* to fight back. That way, the non-AP guns have utility and synergy by softening them up to be taken out, and we can have a versatile, specialized team again.

[Mountain King]

Originally posted by Ice-Nine:

Originally posted by Mountain King:

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you used the wrong name for the weapon you're talking about because the friggin SMG is a flat upgrade on the Liberator lol.

If you have bad aim, sure.

Otherwise, the Liberator has a better fire rate and the damage difference doesn't matter at all.

So the damage difference doesn't matter but the fire rate does. Let's ask ourselves, what do the fire rate and damage directly contribute to? The DPS. So let's see which matters more:

Liberator: 586 DPS
Defender: 606 DPS

Hmmm... I won't make any claims about how good my aim is but I can do math at least.

[Ice-Nine]

Originally posted by Mountain King:

Originally posted by Ice-Nine:

If you have bad aim, sure.

Otherwise, the Liberator has a better fire rate and the damage difference doesn't matter at all.

So the damage difference doesn't matter but the fire rate does. Let's ask ourselves, what do the fire rate and damage directly contribute to? The DPS. So let's see which matters more:

Liberator: 586 DPS
Defender: 606 DPS

Hmmm... I won't make any claims about how good my aim is but I can do math at least.

Yes, because you're not using Liberator or Defender to fight one giant 10,000,000,000HP bullet sponge. You're fighting lots of small enemies.

If an enemy has 30 HP, then you're not actually gaining DPS if your damage goes above 30. All that extra damage is wasted overkill. 30 damage, 50 damage, 500 damage, it's all the same as long as it's >30.

The damage difference between Liberator and Defender doesn't hit any meaningful breakpoints. For most things you're going to be using them for, it's going to take the same number of bullets from each gun (assuming you can aim at weakpoints). So the extra fire rate from Liberator is helpful, while the extra damage from Defender is overwhelmingly wasted.

That and the Liberator has tighter grouping at range and appears, at least, to have a higher projectile velocity.

OTOH, you can use the Defender one-handed, which is kinda neat but not really game changing.

[Fractured]

I personally think the issues arises from the fact that the increase in difficulty ONLY increases the amount of armor you see. Imo, reduce the amount of heavy armor you see, and increase the group size more. It would allow for more weapons/stratagems to be useful if clearing the smaller-medium enemies was more of a problem.

But ya, currently all my friends and I take full anti-armor for bugs. One takes a GL cause he likes it.

Bots are much better at not requiring full anti-armor kits.

[vishuspuss]

Originally posted by Dord :---DD:

It is bloody boring, and all the weapons are terrible besides the railgun and arc thrower. They need to fix this asap. Anyone who says the breaker isn't even that good is a sub 7 pleb who can safely be ignored.

doing helldives with slugger + EATs.

breaker sucks vs a screen of chargers + titans. im a pleb i know