Question for DM Joel: How can we trust you?

[Kerry]

Disclaimer 1: I don't own the game yet, though I do plan to buy it. However, I am familiar with the horror stories of games like DnD and others with highly-toxic, control freak DMs.

Disclaimer 2: This is not an attack on Joel, this company, or this game. It can possibly be construed as an attack on the DM-style system in general, across all games of all styles and all genres, but it is not meant to be. This post is merely a question of trust in the DM, having heard horror stories about DMs and knowing that some people are absolutely terrible DMs. It is also a statement of how I intend to treat the game until which point as I trust the DM.

Post content: As some of you might know, this game has a DM - a Dungeon Master, a real person - working to curate your experience behind the scenes. His name is Joel. If any of you people are familiar with how tabletop games like Dungeons and Dragons or Warhammer or Battletech, etcetera, work; you know what a DM does. If not, listen up:

The DM essentially "plays" your opponent, he's who you're fighting against. He makes all the dice rolls to tell you whether your character hits or misses, he is the one who controls enemy spawns.

And he controls whether anything you get in game, stays with you. He controls whether your reward for liberating a region, is rewarded or denied. He can even take control over your characters when they die. He can give you things, but he can also take things.

The DM is God.

Now, I've heard horror stories where the DM actually does think he's a deity and will remove earned rewards if you're not playing "his" way in an incredibly toxic move.

Knowing these facts, my question is: How are we to know that Joel is trustworthy? That ANY DM is trustworthy? That the entire SYSTEM used by the developers to make this game work, is trustworthy?

Because this game uses a DM system, and knowing the horror stories, I do not trust them, and you should not trust them either. With a DM in charge everything you've done, everything you've earned, should be treated as temporary.

Everything you do, everything you've earned, can easily be removed with the flick of a switch. I heard from a friend that does own the game, that you lot recently liberated Tien Kwan and "earned" mechs. Patriot Exosuits my friend called them. They can be removed. Stolen from you. At the flick of a switch - at the whim of DM Joel.

Some of you may have bought things like armor and weapons. They can be removed. Stolen from you. At the flick of a switch - at the whim of DM Joel.

We don't know this guy personally, and yet we've handed him control over everything. Our characters, our paid-for items, our earned rewards, literally everything. That's an awful lot of trust in one guy, who at the flick of a switch, can take it all, lock stock and barrel.

To do so would be a scummy move, to be sure. But I don't trust any DM I don't know personally, not to do these things.

Not only that, but there has been significant controversy over on the game's subreddit and Twitter/X, plus the Discord! The developers got so toxic that the CEO had to step in!

Source:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/gaming/helldivers-2-ceo-is-extremely-disappointed-with-dev-behavior/ar-BB1jzq4W

Because of this, I fully believe that these developers are more than capable of pulling a scummy move like removing everyone's hard-earned or cash-bought items.

Therefore WHEN I buy the game - and I do intend to buy it soon! - I will not trust this company. I will not buy or use any super-credits, I will not buy or use any warbonds. I will not even trust that we have fully, truly earned any single piece of equipment beyond the default gear we get from the moment the game launched. Nor should you.

They'll get my money for the initial purchase but that's it, because I know it can all be removed, at any time, for any reason or no reason.

The game looks good and I intend to play it, but because of how this game works, because of the system it uses, I will not trust that they will make good on any promises they have ever made. Now, in the past, or in the future.

I invite Joel, and the entire developer team, to weigh in on this and try to convince me otherwise, convince me I should trust them. Should they do so, I will gladly spend money on this game. But until I know they are trustworthy; I will keep my wallet closed beyond the initial game purchase.

[ReRicked]

Just buy and try, then complain. I do love Joel.

[MagikarpMagi]

This is a wall of text from somebody who apparently has played neither D&D nor HD2.

But more importantly: You'll need to post this somewhere else if you want the addressed parties to see it.

[Nobody watches your TTV]

how do you know for sure Joel even exists?

[Kerry]

Originally posted by Nobody watches your TTV:

how do you know for sure Joel even exists?

He did an interview where he revealed all of this. There have been multiple news articles about him too, including one about him asking for assistance.

Originally posted by CritMasterFlex:

This is a wall of text from somebody who apparently has played neither D&D nor HD2.

But more importantly: You'll need to post this somewhere else if you want the addressed parties to see it.

I have played DnD, albeit the video game format and not the tabletop. However, I am aware of the mechanics behind tabletop DnD and I do have an interest in the TTRPG as well, just as I do and have for Helldivers 2.

Furthermore, I am well aware that such horror stories such as the ones I have read are uncommon. However, I am also aware that trust is required for a DM system to work.

Where would you recommend I post the thread? I refuse to use Discord, so it cannot and will not be there. Anywhere else should be fine.

Originally posted by Druipertje:

Just buy and try, then complain. I do love Joel.

I intend to buy and try, but until Joel and the devs have earned my trust, I will give the team no further money past the initial purchase of the game. I simply don't trust the DM system, especially if the DM is someone I don't know personally.

And this isn't a complaint. It's a question. A question of trust, something that needs to be answered if I am going to give money to the developers beyond my initial purchase, or even use the items they put into the game, items they say we have "earned" such as the mechs.

Because based on what I've heard about DMs, nothing the developers give us is permanent. We are being guided through the game by Joel, and nothing we do can actually change the course of the gameplay. We have zero player agency.

[Nobody watches your TTV]

Originally posted by Kerry:

Originally posted by Nobody watches your TTV:

how do you know for sure Joel even exists?

He did an interview where he revealed all of this. There have been multiple news articles about him too.

How would you know that's actually Joel and not some paid actor intended as a target of all the blames?

[BORN2DIE]

Originally posted by Kerry:

Disclaimer 1: I don't own the game yet, though I do plan to buy it. However, I am familiar with the horror stories of games like DnD and others with highly-toxic, control freak DMs.

Disclaimer 2: This is not an attack on Joel, this company, or this game. It can possibly be construed as an attack on the DM-style system in general, across all games of all styles and all genres, but it is not meant to be. This post is merely a question of trust in the DM, having heard horror stories about DMs and knowing that some people are absolutely terrible DMs. It is also a statement of how I intend to treat the game until which point as I trust the DM.

Post content: As some of you might know, this game has a DM - a Dungeon Master, a real person - working to curate your experience behind the scenes. His name is Joel. If any of you people are familiar with how tabletop games like Dungeons and Dragons or Warhammer or Battletech, etcetera, work; you know what a DM does. If not, listen up:

The DM essentially "plays" your opponent, he's who you're fighting against. He makes all the dice rolls to tell you whether your character hits or misses, he is the one who controls enemy spawns.

And he controls whether anything you get in game, stays with you. He controls whether your reward for liberating a region, is rewarded or denied. He can even take control over your characters when they die. He can give you things, but he can also take things.

The DM is God.

Now, I've heard horror stories where the DM actually does think he's a deity and will remove earned rewards if you're not playing "his" way in an incredibly toxic move.

Knowing these facts, my question is: How are we to know that Joel is trustworthy? That ANY DM is trustworthy? That the entire SYSTEM used by the developers to make this game work, is trustworthy?

Because this game uses a DM system, and knowing the horror stories, I do not trust them, and you should not trust them either. With a DM in charge everything you've done, everything you've earned, should be treated as temporary.

Everything you do, everything you've earned, can easily be removed with the flick of a switch. I heard from a friend that does own the game, that you lot recently liberated Tien Kwan and "earned" mechs. Patriot Exosuits my friend called them. They can be removed. Stolen from you. At the flick of a switch - at the whim of DM Joel.

Some of you may have bought things like armor and weapons. They can be removed. Stolen from you. At the flick of a switch - at the whim of DM Joel.

We don't know this guy personally, and yet we've handed him control over everything. Our characters, our paid-for items, our earned rewards, literally everything. That's an awful lot of trust in one guy, who at the flick of a switch, can take it all, lock stock and barrel.

To do so would be a scummy move, to be sure. But I don't trust any DM I don't know personally, not to do these things.

Not only that, but there has been significant controversy over on the game's subreddit and Twitter/X, plus the Discord! The developers got so toxic that the CEO had to step in!

Source:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/gaming/helldivers-2-ceo-is-extremely-disappointed-with-dev-behavior/ar-BB1jzq4W

Because of this, I fully believe that these developers are more than capable of pulling a scummy move like removing everyone's hard-earned or cash-bought items.

Therefore WHEN I buy the game - and I do intend to buy it soon! - I will not trust this company. I will not buy or use any super-credits, I will not buy or use any warbonds. I will not even trust that we have fully, truly earned any single piece of equipment beyond the default gear we get from the moment the game launched. Nor should you.

They'll get my money for the initial purchase but that's it, because I know it can all be removed, at any time, for any reason or no reason.

The game looks good and I intend to play it, but because of how this game works, because of the system it uses, I will not trust that they will make good on any promises they have ever made. Now, in the past, or in the future.

I invite Joel, and the entire developer team, to weigh in on this and try to convince me otherwise, convince me I should trust them. Should they do so, I will gladly spend money on this game. But until I know they are trustworthy; I will keep my wallet closed beyond the initial game purchase.

did you have an AI write this verbose ♥♥♥♥?

[Kerry]

Originally posted by BORN2DIE:

did you have an AI write this verbose ♥♥♥♥?

No, I wrote it myself.

[Kerry]

Originally posted by Nobody watches your TTV:

Originally posted by Kerry:

He did an interview where he revealed all of this. There have been multiple news articles about him too.

How would you know that's actually Joel and not some paid actor intended as a target of all the blames?

Even paid actors make mistakes. If it were a paid actor, they'd be going from a script. No two interviews were identical - it's not an actor.

[BORN2DIE]

Originally posted by Kerry:

Originally posted by BORN2DIE:

did you have an AI write this verbose ♥♥♥♥?

No, I wrote it myself.

well, in that case, FWIW, sorry for being rude

[aGothLizard]

No one is taking earned content away from the players. Your stratagems including the mechs, armor, weapons, and currencies are staying as long as the game exists.

The developers also will not be chiming in on this topic so if you plan to not touch warbonds and don't trust the devs I suggest you don't buy the game as they're an integral part of the progression system.

[Kerry]

Originally posted by Calv:

Because it would be extremely stupid, destroy all trust and ultimately lose them players and money.

No other company uses this system for precisely this reason. If Joel decides he wants to leave the company and do something malicious to the game and its' players, if he wants to destroy the company and turn the player base against them, all he has to do is flick a switch. The company has put their livelihoods in Joel's hands.

Originally posted by aGothLizard:

No one is taking earned content away from the players. Your stratagems including the mechs, armor, weapons, and currencies are staying as long as the game exists.

How do you know for certain that this is the case?

I refuse to use anything beyond what the players were given at the very start of the game because where there's a DM, there's the potential for DM abuse. If that blocks my progression, then so be it.

Warbonds and strategems that were not in the game from the moment of launch, will not be used because I don't have faith that the GM will not remove them or worse, turn them against us.

[EX01]

Originally posted by Kerry:

Disclaimer 1: I don't own the game yet, though I do plan to buy it. However, I am familiar with the horror stories of games like DnD and others with highly-toxic, control freak DMs.

Disclaimer 2: This is not an attack on Joel, this company, or this game. It can possibly be construed as an attack on the DM-style system in general, across all games of all styles and all genres, but it is not meant to be. This post is merely a question of trust in the DM, having heard horror stories about DMs and knowing that some people are absolutely terrible DMs. It is also a statement of how I intend to treat the game until which point as I trust the DM.

Post content: As some of you might know, this game has a DM - a Dungeon Master, a real person - working to curate your experience behind the scenes. His name is Joel. If any of you people are familiar with how tabletop games like Dungeons and Dragons or Warhammer or Battletech, etcetera, work; you know what a DM does. If not, listen up:

The DM essentially "plays" your opponent, he's who you're fighting against. He makes all the dice rolls to tell you whether your character hits or misses, he is the one who controls enemy spawns.

And he controls whether anything you get in game, stays with you. He controls whether your reward for liberating a region, is rewarded or denied. He can even take control over your characters when they die. He can give you things, but he can also take things.

The DM is God.

Now, I've heard horror stories where the DM actually does think he's a deity and will remove earned rewards if you're not playing "his" way in an incredibly toxic move.

Knowing these facts, my question is: How are we to know that Joel is trustworthy? That ANY DM is trustworthy? That the entire SYSTEM used by the developers to make this game work, is trustworthy?

Because this game uses a DM system, and knowing the horror stories, I do not trust them, and you should not trust them either. With a DM in charge everything you've done, everything you've earned, should be treated as temporary.

Everything you do, everything you've earned, can easily be removed with the flick of a switch. I heard from a friend that does own the game, that you lot recently liberated Tien Kwan and "earned" mechs. Patriot Exosuits my friend called them. They can be removed. Stolen from you. At the flick of a switch - at the whim of DM Joel.

Some of you may have bought things like armor and weapons. They can be removed. Stolen from you. At the flick of a switch - at the whim of DM Joel.

We don't know this guy personally, and yet we've handed him control over everything. Our characters, our paid-for items, our earned rewards, literally everything. That's an awful lot of trust in one guy, who at the flick of a switch, can take it all, lock stock and barrel.

To do so would be a scummy move, to be sure. But I don't trust any DM I don't know personally, not to do these things.

Not only that, but there has been significant controversy over on the game's subreddit and Twitter/X, plus the Discord! The developers got so toxic that the CEO had to step in!

Source:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/gaming/helldivers-2-ceo-is-extremely-disappointed-with-dev-behavior/ar-BB1jzq4W

Because of this, I fully believe that these developers are more than capable of pulling a scummy move like removing everyone's hard-earned or cash-bought items.

Therefore WHEN I buy the game - and I do intend to buy it soon! - I will not trust this company. I will not buy or use any super-credits, I will not buy or use any warbonds. I will not even trust that we have fully, truly earned any single piece of equipment beyond the default gear we get from the moment the game launched. Nor should you.

They'll get my money for the initial purchase but that's it, because I know it can all be removed, at any time, for any reason or no reason.

The game looks good and I intend to play it, but because of how this game works, because of the system it uses, I will not trust that they will make good on any promises they have ever made. Now, in the past, or in the future.

I invite Joel, and the entire developer team, to weigh in on this and try to convince me otherwise, convince me I should trust them. Should they do so, I will gladly spend money on this game. But until I know they are trustworthy; I will keep my wallet closed beyond the initial game purchase.

Don't buy it, it's kite simulator which is on steam for far less money! ;-)

[LASci]

I wouldn't get too excited about the "GM" aspect of the game. Right now there's just a couple of "planets" (aka map biomes) that just kind of rotate through their availability. Is it the player or the GM that affects their availability? Who knows? And it doesn't matter. GM or not, it's not like they're going to leave you with no maps to fight on.

[Arestris]

The DM essentially "plays" your opponent, he's who you're fighting against.

And this base assumption is already wrong! A DM is not your opponent. A classical GM guides through the story and adjusts things in background (ideally without the players realizing it, but that doesn't work always) to control the challenge. Right, a classical GM also is the voice of your opponents, but also the voice of traders, people you met underway, any non-Player-Character!
But the GM has not the goal to kill the players!
I claim Joel has even less influence. Of course, he sets targets, controls what happens where next and so on, of course this includes how many enemies are invading a planet (and with that the progress), but like said, this is for controlling events, not defeating the player.

[Kerry]

Originally posted by LASci:

I wouldn't get too excited about the "GM" aspect of the game. Right now there's just a couple of "planets" (aka map biomes) that just kind of rotate through their availability. Is it the player or the GM that affects their availability? Who knows? And it doesn't matter. GM or not, it's not like they're going to leave you with no maps to fight on.

Nah, they might just remove armor or weapons, remove rewards or just not grant them, remove strategems entirely, or turn the strategems you've earned against you.

One should treat any and all objects in a game with a GM/DM as if they were temporary, liable to be removed before your very next battle or used against you during that battle.