Lore/Story General Thread ENG

[would whip]

Story Discussion

I don't know about the rest of you, but I finished the game with a lot of questions, and unfortunately I can't read Mandarin. I felt it would be important to share some ideas in the English-speaking side of the community to try and relate some of the Lovecraftian and dystopian references just for the purpose of general understanding, given how cryptic and disjointed the presentation of the game's background is.

There will be spoilers, so please finish the game in its entirety before reading ahead.


The first place I would like to begin with is the significance of the Yellow King, or Hastur, and the repetition of his namesake throughout the game. We know very little about the internal culture surrounding the lost inhabitants of the game, however the Jack fight in the marionette theatre and the encounter with [Hastur?] himself does show us that there is some sort of following surrounding the existence of the Yellow King and the land he hails from, Carcosa, within the ICEY universe. This may be scientific, religious, or some other form of devotion that is not entirely clarified. We know little about what the direct meaning of Carcosa is within this game, however in the Cthulhu mythos, which the game repeatedly pulls from, it is the homeland of the Yellow King, and the land that he rules over. This connection implies a kind of divinity to Carcosa, given the context of the Yellow King as a deity figure as he is portrayed in this game. To this end, Carcosa in the ICEY universe may be a form of heaven, or even a real location among the cosmos, that the ambiguous level of scientific research going on within the game discovered. Again, much of it is left unclear by the the cryptic nature of the game's lore reveals. Given Hastur’s relationship to ICEY, which I will discuss in depth later on, I choose to believe that Carcosa is a form of tangible heaven (or hell) that is inhabited by Hastur. The scientists themselves provide a majority of the information for how Hastur exists in this universe. They refer to him as god, singular, and for what may be part of a search for immortality, they are looking for his name. There is also mention of multiple deities within the universe here, however Hastur himself is said to have 9 billion names, implying that these other deities may just be iterations of the single entity that is the Yellow King. Personally this theory fits well to my own speculation based on my knowledge of the game's story, but I'm interested to hear other people's opinions.

This brings us back to Jack, and his relationship to the scientists as well as Hastur. He is said to have faith in the Yellow King and the existence of Carcosa, and even tried to become the Chosen One and serve under him. However there are a few aspects of this that raise questions we must answer to understand the full situation.
1.) How is he related to the scientists? Jack bears striking resemblance to ICEY, in his moveset and his visuals (and the gun he uses is especially reminiscent of the gun that the prototype ICEY used in our look at the cut version of her ranged weapon as seen in the unfinished room cutscene, if my memory serves), implying that he is a kind of rogue creation from the scientists who created ICEY. They both are the only humanoid beings of their kind, if UCEY and the other robots are any indication, however Jack distances himself seemingly intentionally from Judas and his organization and is even off the required game path, only to follow the will of Hastur. This relationship sets up for a correlation between Jack's story and ICEY's origins.
2.)How are ICEY and Jack triangulated with Hastur? ICEY is repeatedly branded as "the Chosen One," which repeatedly seems to imply that she was chosen as a champion of Hastur himself. If she is his chosen one, then Jack's hostility toward her and will to replace her and become the Chosen One himself explains how "his heresy made him unfit to serve the Yellow King." If ICEY truly is his champion, then we have formed the relationship between her, Jack, and Hastur successfully. However there is a piece that we are ignoring from the original point.
3.) The now most important and least obvious question here is how are these three characters (ICEY, who is Hastur's chosen one, Jack, an outcast disciple, and Hastur, the god himself) all related to the scientists and the lab that created them?

I am of the opinion that there is a piece of information missing about how the scientists interacted with Hastur in their search for his name that connects the gap between ICEY's origin and the black star. I think within the missing link, we would see that ICEY was created within the same lab that was producing the UCEY robots, and the reason she is different is as a result of this interaction with Hastur. She is his chosen one, which implies that his influence is the reason she is hunting Judas whereas Jack is still looking to serve Hastur.

This would partially explain why ICEY is fighting Judas's organization, as well as why the rise of the black star coincides with the death of Judas. Additionally, this may or may not show how the girl in stasis that we see as part of the UCEY scene is related to ICEY. She is only shown in that single instance to my knowledge, but given everything else we know about the lab itself and the fact that she is shown alongside UCEY, I believe she is a manner of a vessel for the deity- a shell with no need for memory or emotion with a single goal given by its creator- kill Judas.

Because of the way all these pieces fit together, I am led to believe that ICEY is truly a vessel of Hastur, who has sent his influence from Carcosa manifested as ICEY herself via the lab's contact with Hastur. Through their contact, Hastur managed to use ICEY as a means to causing the black star event, which evidently is associated with Judas in a way I do not yet fully understand. This explains why Judas and his organization are all trying to stop ICEY, why Jack has isolated himself from the same organization that created him, and why ICEY is who she is and does what she does. Going back to Carcosa as it is portrayed in the Cthulhu mythos, "the black stars rise in Carcosa," which to me only points to the idea that ICEY is truly doing the bidding of Hastur.

But even still, what led the scientists to search for him? What is Hastur's true relationship with Judas? And what caused the black star to rise? Judas and his organization are overtly portrayed as the antagonists in this game, but if the devs wanted to teach us anything it’s that the narrator is not to be trusted. But I digress. The lore surrounding the other bosses obviously plays a large role in how we are to interpret Judas's organization, but I don't really have enough information about them yet to form a definitive answer about their purpose outside of my other speculations.

I know I just talked on many different points with very little justification, but everything in ICEY is interconnected. Well, except for the narrator's fiance and the whole true ending phenomenon, but I'm focusing on the in-game universe at the moment. Please let me know what you think about all of this. I really feel strongly about the idea that ICEY is doing Hastur's work and maybe there is some significance to the fact that Jack's boss fight is in the marionette theatre. There is still much to be said about this game, but that's why we are in a discussion forum. Feel free to attack the points I've made and present entirely new ideas, we are all here to learn more.

Finally, thank you for reading the giant wall of text I just posted. I put more thought into this piece of writing than into the english paper I should be doing right now, so I hope my efforts are not in vain. Good luck, and happy lore hunting to everyone out there!

-Moonwalk

[Lifeland]

Ok, so, the whole thing about The narrator getting shot can tie in to my "repeat of events that already happened" theory. Just because we are presented the events in a certain order, they don't necessarly happen in that order. There definetly seems to be more conflict in some endings more than others. I think that whoever is typing most of the text that appears in the I™ interface after each ending seems to be presenting them to you as events from the past. Now, I say "most" because there is more than one auther of this text. The key to this is found in the fact that some charecters type in specific colors of text. (E.G. the narrorator will talk in both standard and red text colors, ICEY talks in green, and the yellow guy in, well, yellow.) The people who type these segments speak in exclusively past-tense, with the exeptions of speaking to each other. And while they do tend to seem to speak about events which happen before the events of ICEY, In some cases, it could be about events that we just saw, such as right after Jack gets killed. In this instance, The text talks mainly about Jack's desires, and not his actions.

Okay, one quick thing I may have not made clear.
The narrator is most definetly digital.

He can be rebooted, he even adresses his own "virtuallity". What I was saying is that he always was virtual, and still is. the only thing now is that he is being mass-produced for the video game ICEY. The themes of Identity in ICEY apply to him, being mass produced for many different copies of a single game, being made to do the same things over and over again.

One thing to note, in the scene where the narrator gets shot, he gets reset by someone typing in green text. ICEY's color of text. Was he shot by an ICEY clone? we know some ICEY prototypes carried guns. and it actually makes sence for a gun to be used, as well, as the proto-ICEYs' swords are bulky and slower to be deployed, if you examine the prototype footage long enough.

Anyway, the last bit of my post which you couldn't understand has to do with the nature of Lovecraftian horror. Lovecraft wrote his stories that way to turn the science-fantasy genre that was so popular back then on it's head. Rather than having man able to conquor anything imaginable, there were these powers so great, so terrifying, so powerful, that humans would never be able to understand them, let alone conquor them. That is the true fear that emerges from Lovecraftian horror. A being that can control anything you do, even what you think, and no matter how much power you have, how much determination you have, you can not even defy those powers. The only thing you can do is try to please them. A scientific phenomenon CAN occor, but it would not CHOSE to. Why comparing Hastur to a "false vaccume decay" is insane is tha Hastur, a cosmic entity with infinte power can CHOSE to eliminate anybody who opposes it. What I was trying to say is, that the people of ICEY's world chose to try and appease their creators in the "outside" world so their chances of being deleted would fall.

This may or may not be a footnote at this point, but the "meaninglessness" I was talking about had to do with the fact that saying that if the narrorator's responses were truly "programmed", then anything presented to us before that point, (the post-ending text, the narrator's responces when you go off the beaten path, E.T.C.) is "just part of the game." I for one, would not create something that in-depth just to say that it is "just a game." It has meaning, and what I was saying was that the narrator had control over what he said at one point, but eventually somehow lost it.

[Zesc]

Okay, pardon me for this, but it is necessary for my mental peace:
The Narrator is not digital. A digital system is one that only knows two states, On/Off; Yes/No; True/False. Digital is the opposite of anaolgue, it is not "exists within a computer". What you mean (and later properly used) is "virtual".

Now, regarding the nature of the Narrator... again, i currently haven't acces to the game, but if i remember correctly, he is transcendental in a way that he is not bound to the I™ System. He is, when i recall rigth, he talks in the start up screen when you launch the game the very first time. You know, before the I™ get's booted, before the actual game begins. In that way, he would be, in some way, even more powerfull than Hastur. If this doesn't apply, ignore this paragraph.

Oh, i do know the essence of lovecraftian horror (which is more than meets the eye at first glance) very well. But i actually think that being able to please some higher beings. They, afterall CHOOSE. They are, by their own twisted means, reaosnable. You can influence the outcome, whilst pure chance migth or migth not happen. That's much scarier of an out-of-context-problem. Or, how "The Gigantic Beard That Was Evil" explained it: what we have to deal with here would be reasonless-ity itself.

Also, what you half-ways touched here is the very important point: a being that is totally able to manipulate all your thinking, a Genius malignus[en.wikipedia.org] that reshapes your reality at will defies the concept of any reational discourse. There was a technical term for this kind of situation, but i, for Azatoths' sake, can't remember it. However, the same can be applied to the assumption that all happening before the true ending is pre-destined. Yes, it also makes anything meaningless, and is an argument that kills discussions and get's you no farther. A dead end or -loop. Gawh... why can't i remember? Anyway, this chain of thougth is futile. "It's that ways because Hastur wants it that way." Is a undeniable argument granting zero insigth, and fails the purpose of this thread.

Looks like i got a little bittle of topic. Back to the Narrator, and his death: I do not think any UCEY experiemntal made it to that level of transcendence to harm the Narrator, except ICEY herself. Oh, and why should you want to revive whom you killed just a moment ago?

Now, i think we could help ourselves alot if we could figure out what I™ actually is. i got three conflicting thesises:

1. I™ is the neutral world:
   Just like the Grid from Tron or the Matrix (from Matrix), the I™ System is not somebody, but somewhere. It is the "physical" world in which the game takes place, with the Laboratory, the Clocktower, the Theatre, and all that other stuff in and around Ultimopolis. As such, and instances of things within the I™ we encounter, besides probably Hastur and the Narrator, are offsprings of the greater framework.
   
2. I™ is ICEY:
   Not just the letter seems to be an Acronym for ICEY, but it would also make sense in a way that the entire purpose of it was to gain sentience. Partly compatible with 1. when we assume the world was just created to allow for the development of ICEY. The "About.txt" seems to support this thesis by a bit.
   
3. I™ is either Carcosa or the Yellow King:
   Realized how "YOU DIED AGAINNNNNNN" is spelled in Yellow? Like an annoyed child bored of it's toy making no progress. And just like The King in Yellow is just a part of the eponymous King, I™ could also just be a fraction of Hastur.

Also... i'll be absolutely honest: i have no clue what the Black Star is. My best guess is "a metaphor for the player shutting of the game, thus it will most likely rise after beating the games, when the player move on to other activities", but that interpretation doesn't fits at all to the rest of the game, unless this suddenly became Pony Island.

[Lifeland]

I have some theories, but I can't double check the evidence as my controler broke and I am terrible without it, so until I get a new one, I'll be taking a break.

[Zesc]

Originally posted by lifeland:

I have some theories, but I can't double check the evidence as my controler broke and I am terrible without it, so until I get a new one, I'll be taking a break.

Don't rush. But i find the ICEY keyboard layout very ergonomic and intuitive. Reminded me of the LEGO games keyboard controls.

Actually, thinking about it, my custom keybindings for many other 2D games are heavily inspires by ICEY, involving: Gloom, Hollow Knigth, Dead Cells, Shrouded in Sanity, etc.

[yukikanade]

Hi, Idk if anyone has noticed this before, but Leeroy Rogers (probably) only exists in the English version of the game. I've checked the Japanese version and the Chinese version, and the narrator doesn't actually have a name, he is simply referred to as “ナビゲーター”（the navigator）/"旁白君"（Mr. Narrator）. I'm wondering why did the translator decide to give the narrator a name ( and such a special name like Le(e)roy Rogers? wow...) in the English version...

[would whip]

I actually finished the game before they added an english narrator, that's an interesting observation. The only thing I've found is that Leeroy Rogers is also the name of a serial killer. Not sure if that is intentional or relevant because the name is actually Dayton Leeroy Rogers? Otherwise idk.

[Zesc]

LEEEEEROOOOOY ROOOOOGEEEEERS!

Wait.

Whatever, this is indeed an interesting thing. Also, since my knowlegde of the eastern languges equalls exactly zero, i must trust you on this translation, but "Navigator" is an odd choice of words, isn't it?

"Navigator" rings some bells in connection to the Cthulhu Mythos. I must look up where exactly a "Navigator" was mentioned, but i'm sure there was something special...

But, at the other hand, do we know the Narrator is Leeroy Rogers? As far as things go, they could be unrelated individuals, since those mails were never explicitly adressed to the Narrator.

[yukikanade]

Originally posted by Zesc:

LEEEEEROOOOOY ROOOOOGEEEEERS!

Wait.

Whatever, this is indeed an interesting thing. Also, since my knowlegde of the eastern languges equalls exactly zero, i must trust you on this translation, but "Navigator" is an odd choice of words, isn't it?

"Navigator" rings some bells in connection to the Cthulhu Mythos. I must look up where exactly a "Navigator" was mentioned, but i'm sure there was something special...

But, at the other hand, do we know the Narrator is Leeroy Rogers? As far as things go, they could be unrelated individuals, since those mails were never explicitly adressed to the Narrator.

Me too is curious about why the Japanese translator uses the word “ナビゲーター”（the navigator）when there's obviously another available choice "ナレーター" (the narrator). Maybe because the voice is guiding Icy all her way or...? Please do tell me if you find something from the Cthulhu Mythos.

As for the emails, they were explicitly addressed to the narrator( “ナビゲーター"/“旁白君”) in both Japanese and Chinese version, which makes the English translation (to Leeroy Rogers, not the narrator) more special and interesting. Also, in both Japanese and Chinese version, each person who sends the email has a "name" that pronounces like his job (for example, in the Chinese version the testing guy is named "泰斯特", and the pronunciation of this name resembles the Chinglish pronunciation of “tester”) but in the English version, they also have unique names（like "Tyson"）. I don't think the English translator doesn't realize that he can simply use something like "Nar Rator" and "Tes Ter" etc. instead of "Leeroy Rogers" and "Tyson" ...so ...why?

And I just noticed yet another difference in translation. In the English version, after he's shot by his wife, the narrator said: "I think I've...had this feeling...before. But it's new. I'm done...I'm over."
In the Chinese version, he said: "怎么……我……好像经历过……这个感觉……这种新生的感觉……我究竟……我究竟……" If translated word by word to English, it's: "What the...I...(I) seem to have experienced (this)(before)...this feeling...this feeling of being reborn...I ...what on earth... "I'm not saying that my translation is the "correct" one (how dare I lol) but I'm pretty sure in the Chinese version, there's no "done" or "over", but a narrator who starts to question if he is trapped in an endless loop.

These are only some minor translation differences but may lead to completely different plot interpretations tho...🤔

[yukikanade]

Originally posted by woodenskeleton:

I actually finished the game before they added an english narrator, that's an interesting observation. The only thing I've found is that Leeroy Rogers is also the name of a serial killer. Not sure if that is intentional or relevant because the name is actually Dayton Leeroy Rogers? Otherwise idk.

Yeah I tried to google the name and found some info about the serial killer, but I haven't found anything relevant yet... think I'm going to smash my phone if the translator just picks this name randomly🤣

[Zesc]

Turns out that "navigator" thing was a fluke. Closest thing i found was the Navigator from Ursuper, a OC within a baseline CM setting.

Well, having myself done a translation for a game (Egress) i can verify that sometimes, you can't just translate 1:1 unless you don't care about quality. "Tess Tear" would still be possible, but the other shennenigans? Hardly doable outside the original language. Paraphrasing is the keyword here. I wouldn't interpet to much into these details, tbh, because it is hardly reliable.

When it comes to "navigating", though, i instantly remembered the Confusing Ending from The Stanly Parable (a game that is not unlike ICEY in many aspects) where (TSP's) the Narrator is apparently really in the possesion of maps for the game. (Both in a geographical sense as in terms of progress charts.)

However, i think there is a deeper meaning behind "Leeroy Rogers", but i doubt it is of any concern to the storyline... But my sense for lame puns tingles, and we probably can't see the forest because of the trees here...

I'll crank my head over it some more, let's see what another nigth of sleep can do.

[yukikanade]

Originally posted by Zesc:

Turns out that "navigator" thing was a fluke. Closest thing i found was the Navigator from Ursuper, a OC within a baseline CM setting.

Well, having myself done a translation for a game (Egress) i can verify that sometimes, you can't just translate 1:1 unless you don't care about quality. "Tess Tear" would still be possible, but the other shennenigans? Hardly doable outside the original language. Paraphrasing is the keyword here. I wouldn't interpet to much into these details, tbh, because it is hardly reliable.

When it comes to "navigating", though, i instantly remembered the Confusing Ending from The Stanly Parable (a game that is not unlike ICEY in many aspects) where (TSP's) the Narrator is apparently really in the possesion of maps for the game. (Both in a geographical sense as in terms of progress charts.)

However, i think there is a deeper meaning behind "Leeroy Rogers", but i doubt it is of any concern to the storyline... But my sense for lame puns tingles, and we probably can't see the forest because of the trees here...

I'll crank my head over it some more, let's see what another nigth of sleep can do.

I agree with you that a 1:1 translation is not possible as long as the quality is concerned (this brings me back to all those disastrous texts I've proofread and edited...), but a translation that differs so greatly from the original text? Hmmm...

But yeah, among all these differences Leeroy Rogers is the most significant one, while other differences may be interpreted as inevitable in the process of translation, the naming of the narrator is obviously not among them. I don't think this would have any influence on the main storyline tho (this is why I called it a minor translation difference) but it would expand players' interpretation and discussion regarding the plot. The narrator, from Mr. Narrator to a specific name Leeroy Rogers...a narrator "system" closer to a "human"...

[Zesc]

Originally posted by yukikanade:

I agree with you that a 1:1 translation is not possible as long as the quality is concerned (this brings me back to all those disastrous texts I've proofread and edited...), but a translation that differs so greatly from the original text? Hmmm...

But yeah, among all these differences Leeroy Rogers is the most significant one, while other differences may be interpreted as inevitable in the process of translation, the naming of the narrator is obviously not among them. I don't think this would have any influence on the main storyline tho (this is why I called it a minor translation difference) but it would expand players' interpretation and discussion regarding the plot. The narrator, from Mr. Narrator to a specific name Leeroy Rogers...a narrator "system" closer to a "human"...

Talking of proofreading... Yay, steam has now a forced spellchecker. Which is set to your client language, so everything i am now writting appears red, huzzah!

Anyway, back to the original topic: Sometimes you need to do "grave" changes like a name change to make stuff congruent and not feel wierd. I think a concrete name is sparking less discussions than an ominous one as "Mr. Narrator" (especially since Dr. Wondertainment would sue for copyrigth infringement).

But back to the mass murdering Leeroy Rogers, a restfull nigth gave me these insigth: See, apparently the Narrators job is to guide an UCEY to defeat Juday and ascend into... whatever. And there's a bunch of other ICEY's littered around the path to Judas, all most likely instructed by the very same temper Narrator as the real one.

"You died againnnnnnnnn". And this partly because of his instructions. Sounds a lot like a serial killer to me.

Still, i doubt, i would argue that Leeroy Rogers is nothing but something a fake ID generator spit out.

[Sylverone]

Okay, I'm not familiar with the Cthulu mythos except for the general "feel" and themes of related materials I've encountered, but I think I'll jump in with some thoughts. I wish there was an archive of the game text because much of the Yellow King related story is presented on screen only fast enough to read and not to process or remember precisely every time. Bear in mind that I have not played the DLC yet, though I likely will soon.

I haven't watched through to see if it's complete with all the hidden story, but this playthrough video can serve as some reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9ml4MD2kUg

I made some notes as I read this thread. First I'll chip in with some contributions to the "defining things and roles" part of discussion:

1. Zesc: "Also, it is at no point verified, but if Mr. Fourarms we met after Jack's bossfigth is indeed the Yellow King/Hastur, he would be quite a phyisical metaphor, wouldn't he?"
It is verified (Yellow King, not the Hastur part), in the achievements:
"The Abyss Watches Back:
Confront the Yellow King in the monitor room"

2. The Black Star - While it may also have figurative significance, has anyone considered that the growing black circle with the distortion around it, which appears after defeating Judas, might BE the black star? There is only one other place that I recall seeing that distortion effect: each time the Yellow King manifests in the monitor room. Not a coincidence? As a side note that lensing effect vaguely resembles the gravitational lensing around a black hole. Interesting, no? The King is holding a book in his final appearance which I can only assume is the Necronomicon.
- Actually, there is one other place the distortion appears: The expanding black circle is present on some of the looping monitors. I don't recall whether the scene in the monitors has a sky in it like the end of the game though. It may be a different scene and therefore a clue. Did the scientists summon the Black Star in the course of their experiments, and then it kept recurring?

3. "Mr. Narrator" - He is clearly a virtual entity, but the precise nature of the system he resides in and how it's layers relate to each other seems open for debate.
In case it clarifies the nature of the narrator, there's this scene: https://youtu.be/O5-zO5EzYgI?t=97
When he says, "All of my responses have been programmed." etc. the screen displays the words "artificial intelligence". There is more than one kind of "programmed", in theory. It's not clear that he is the one displaying those words, either, as at other points he clearly doesn't seem to have control of the screens (such as the "incorrect answer" text before his - presumably - wife shoots him).
Here's my radical proposition to promote discussion: The narrator may have been the developer of an actual game. Maybe that game WAS the "The Yellow King" play of his reality? Maybe he made the game, but also somehow got entangled with the "real thing" existing in another reality. Or maybe he is a reconstruction? Or maybe he truly is a construct. Many possibilities. The player may be the bridge between many realities.

4. "Carcosa" - Isn't it referred to as the "Carcossa Cluster" in one of the text-drops? As in a star cluster? (Black Star?) Elsewhere it is said that Judas uploaded his followers' minds into a virtual world called Ultimopolis. I got the impression that maybe this is one of those "databank of uploaded humans floating amongst the stars" sort of scenarios, but I may have jumped to a conclusion. Is it not also said at some point that Hastur was "calculating" its own names? What if Hastur is the machine or intelligent OS of the system they occupy? Maybe the Yellow King and the Black Star are interlopers? Just throwing random ideas.


Moving on from definitions, I wanted to respond to this quote:

Originally posted by Zesc:

Also, what you half-ways touched here is the very important point: a being that is totally able to manipulate all your thinking, a Genius malignus[en.wikipedia.org] that reshapes your reality at will defies the concept of any reational discourse. There was a technical term for this kind of situation, but i, for Azatoths' sake, can't remember it. However, the same can be applied to the assumption that all happening before the true ending is pre-destined. Yes, it also makes anything meaningless, and is an argument that kills discussions and get's you no farther. A dead end or -loop. Gawh... why can't i remember? Anyway, this chain of thougth is futile. "It's that ways because Hastur wants it that way." Is a undeniable argument granting zero insigth, and fails the purpose of this thread.

I have a general term that I use to describe such scenarios, including all such nihilistic and deterministic interpretations of reality: Philosophical dead ends. I know there must be a proper term out there, but this is what I call them. My premise is this: any interpretation of reality that renders choice meaningless or nonexistent is meaningless to consider true. If you interpret reality to contain no truly free will, then according to you you are only a machine who had no choice but to think that, so the argument is self-defeating. So there must be at least an infinitesimal degree of true freedom in any reality worth considering our own. There must be something, otherwise the universe is already effectively over, everything dead, just a moving kind of dead. The exact nature of that freedom is completely open to debate. I choose, therefore I am. The objective mechanical is not sufficient to explain the subjective experience of self. I think this reasoning is useful to avoid traps of nihilism in real life (perhaps the closest thing to a Lovecraftian mind-trap that we must commonly contend with).

I have a few other thoughts, but this is most of it for now.

[Zesc]

Originally posted by cliftut:

Zesc: "Also, it is at no point verified, but if Mr. Fourarms we met after Jack's bossfigth is indeed the Yellow King/Hastur, he would be quite a phyisical metaphor, wouldn't he?"
It is verified (Yellow King, not the Hastur part), in the achievements:
"The Abyss Watches Back:
Confront the Yellow King in the monitor room"

Absolutely correct, although my "the player is Hastur" theory would not be harmed by this (the eyes on the screens). I refrained from using achievements as proof because the translation on them seems to be rather sloppy. (Probably a third party was involved in those?)

Originally posted by cliftut:

2. The Black Star - While it may also have figurative significance, has anyone considered that the growing black circle with the distortion around it, which appears after defeating Judas, might BE the black star? There is only one other place that I recall seeing that distortion effect: each time the Yellow King manifests in the monitor room. Not a coincidence? As a side note that lensing effect vaguely resembles the gravitational lensing around a black hole. Interesting, no? The King is holding a book in his final appearance which I can only assume is the Necronomicon.
- Actually, there is one other place the distortion appears: The expanding black circle is present on some of the looping monitors. I don't recall whether the scene in the monitors has a sky in it like the end of the game though. It may be a different scene and therefore a clue. Did the scientists summon the Black Star in the course of their experiments, and then it kept recurring?

Actually, i always though that way, and expected it to be understood by everyone here. This is not an offense against you, but more something we just apparently forgot to talk about and just kept implying.

But got observation with the fact that a similar effect can be seen when the YK appears. That migth mean somethign regarding your fourth point (see below). Especially since it does indeed resembles gravitation lensing. (Not really that around a black hole though, but i won't blame anyone for lacking understanding of higher astrophysics.)

Also, i must check that with the book he's holding. I always expected the necronomicon to be some sort of database in that setting.

Originally posted by cliftut:

3. "Mr. Narrator" - He is clearly a virtual entity, but the precise nature of the system he resides in and how it's layers relate to each other seems open for debate.
In case it clarifies the nature of the narrator, there's this scene: [*snip video*]
When he says, "All of my responses have been programmed." etc. the screen displays the words "artificial intelligence". There is more than one kind of "programmed", in theory. It's not clear that he is the one displaying those words, either, as at other points he clearly doesn't seem to have control of the screens (such as the "incorrect answer" text before his - presumably - wife shoots him).
Here's my radical proposition to promote discussion: The narrator may have been the developer of an actual game. Maybe that game WAS the "The Yellow King" play of his reality? Maybe he made the game, but also somehow got entangled with the "real thing" existing in another reality. Or maybe he is a reconstruction? Or maybe he truly is a construct. Many possibilities. The player may be the bridge between many realities.

Yes, figuring out where the I™ stops, the Narrator begins, how far the "actual world" reaches, and how Hastur is involved in all this is open to debatte, and it seems like every clue just results in even more questions.

When it comes to displaying such words... I™ is defenitly a framework that can be apparently accessed by a multitude of characters. And i doubt that the Narrator was displaying "Artificial Intelligence" there (iirc, not his text colour?) but rather a message directly by I™. (Whether it is an automated "system message" or I™ is by any means sentient/sapient... who knows?)

The Narrator does have almost no control about what's happening, to be accurate. You know how upset he gets whenever the players leaves the predetermined path? If it bothers him so much, and he could do something about it, he certainly would.

The only thing that conflicts with this are his actions when you leap of the bridge early in the game and during the SHIO sequence, where he was able to add new parts to the game.

I like your proposition. However, ICEY seems to be able to atleast somehow transcend out of this whole mess, which is something that technically shouldn't be possible if Hastur had complete control. (In general, it is noteworthy how the Yellow King might not deliberately stay inert, but seems to be unable to influence certain parts.)

Originally posted by cliftut:

4. "Carcosa" - Isn't it referred to as the "Carcossa Cluster" in one of the text-drops? As in a star cluster? (Black Star?) Elsewhere it is said that Judas uploaded his followers' minds into a virtual world called Ultimopolis. I got the impression that maybe this is one of those "databank of uploaded humans floating amongst the stars" sort of scenarios, but I may have jumped to a conclusion. Is it not also said at some point that Hastur was "calculating" its own names? What if Hastur is the machine or intelligent OS of the system they occupy? Maybe the Yellow King and the Black Star are interlopers? Just throwing random ideas.

Yes, i recall something similar about Carcossa. To be honest, this is one of the concepts i love most about this game. The thought that the "Paradise" Carcossa migth just be a fictional blissfull utopia, but an actually existing place somewhere out there. Truly fascinating, but i am derailing.

I think it is certain that Hastur in this scenario is just a "sufficiently advanced alien" (but this is the enritety of the CM in my personal canon). Carcossa could very well be hidden in/around the "Black Star".

Ultimopolis is defenitly not "real" in the way a mundane person like we would define "reality". (Actually, doesn't Dahal's/Trinitiy's Achievement mention something along these lines?) I think the world there exists in a state in which you can not discern between what is real and what is just virtual, in the same way you can glitch things in Axiom Verge. The technology in this setting is so powerfull they can manipulate the fabric of what we perceive as "reality".

And i think that with such technologic power at hands, a god is a thing within reach. No abstract concept, but something that can be... "Interacted" with by proper methods.

But i do not think this all happens in a server. i think that objects within Ultimopolis do indeed exist as physical matter, it's just the point physics mean nothing.

...I just realized that if Ultimopolis is exclusive to Judas' devotees, this means the UCEYs and ICEY must be followers of him to get there... or?

And Hastus being the I™... Interesting chain of thought, would defenitly explain the outrageous "YOU DIED AGAINNNNNN" of someone who gets bored of bad performance.

Originally posted by cliftut:

Moving on from definitions, I wanted to respond to this quote:

Originally posted by Zesc:

Also, what you half-ways touched here is the very important point: a being that is totally able to manipulate all your thinking, a Genius malignus[en.wikipedia.org] that reshapes your reality at will defies the concept of any reational discourse. There was a technical term for this kind of situation, but i, for Azatoths' sake, can't remember it. However, the same can be applied to the assumption that all happening before the true ending is pre-destined. Yes, it also makes anything meaningless, and is an argument that kills discussions and get's you no farther. A dead end or -loop. Gawh... why can't i remember? Anyway, this chain of thougth is futile. "It's that ways because Hastur wants it that way." Is a undeniable argument granting zero insigth, and fails the purpose of this thread.

I have a general term that I use to describe such scenarios, including all such nihilistic and deterministic interpretations of reality: Philosophical dead ends. I know there must be a proper term out there, but this is what I call them. My premise is this: any interpretation of reality that renders choice meaningless or nonexistent is meaningless to consider true. If you interpret reality to contain no truly free will, then according to you you are only a machine who had no choice but to think that, so the argument is self-defeating. So there must be at least an infinitesimal degree of true freedom in any reality worth considering our own. There must be something, otherwise the universe is already effectively over, everything dead, just a moving kind of dead. The exact nature of that freedom is completely open to debate. I choose, therefore I am. The objective mechanical is not sufficient to explain the subjective experience of self. I think this reasoning is useful to avoid traps of nihilism in real life (perhaps the closest thing to a Lovecraftian mind-trap that we must commonly contend with).

I totally agree with your argumentation here, although that isn't so suprising when you are actually the person agreeing with me(?), but the matter is a different one.

That other board is actually having a term (idk if it is a serious one used in philosophy or just forum slang) which i just can't remember. Whenever a premise would make arguing about it meaningless. ARGHHHHH I AM FEELING MY WRATH BURNING LIKE THE FIRES OF HELL BECAUSE I CAN'T REMEMBER! But neither do i have to time to dig through the literal millions of posts in a forum that is older than me.

[Sylverone]

Originally posted by Zesc:

The Narrator does have almost no control about what's happening, to be accurate. You know how upset he gets whenever the players leaves the predetermined path? If it bothers him so much, and he could do something about it, he certainly would.

The only thing that conflicts with this are his actions when you leap of the bridge early in the game and during the SHIO sequence, where he was able to add new parts to the game.

Well that and the entire "true" ending. At that point his "ability" overcomes some system "authority", but is superceded by Icey's awakening. It's actually kind of odd that in their world just realizing what you are is enough to gain such power, but that is typical of such "magical moments" in self-aware transcendant plots like this, I suppose.

Originally posted by Zesc:

I like your proposition. However, ICEY seems to be able to atleast somehow transcend out of this whole mess, which is something that technically shouldn't be possible if Hastur had complete control. (In general, it is noteworthy how the Yellow King might not deliberately stay inert, but seems to be unable to influence certain parts.)

Once thing that really stood out to me a strange is this: Judas himself was the one who proposed the creation of a "Chosen One", if I recall right. But everything else in the story of course poses him against the Chosen One. And why did he go on a rampage, killing everyone despite the fact that it has been said they were his followers? Obviosly cultist-type plotlines could explain it, or he just went insane, or... it was a step in a plan, which may or may not have been in motion when Ultimopolis started?

Originally posted by Zesc:

Ultimopolis is defenitly not "real" in the way a mundane person like we would define "reality". (Actually, doesn't Dahal's/Trinitiy's Achievement mention something along these lines?) I think the world there exists in a state in which you can not discern between what is real and what is just virtual, in the same way you can glitch things in Axiom Verge. The technology in this setting is so powerfull they can manipulate the fabric of what we perceive as "reality".

Maybe. There's not much way to conclusively say. The fourth wall is so mangled and there are so many layers implied by the sparse clues it's hard to even say what layer is the "top", aside from the level of the player, since I haven't been visited by ICEY yet. ;P

Here are the achievement quotes:
""Dahal's Pain
Defeat Dahal Only in a virtual world is such a thing possible... To mix two beings' memories... Because of this, Dahal short-circuited.

Trinity's Self
Defeat Trinity Even after her memories were mixed with another's, Trinity still tried to prevent the birth of the Chosen One. That was, of course, futile.""

Originally posted by Zesc:

But i do not think this all happens in a server. i think that objects within Ultimopolis do indeed exist as physical matter, it's just the point physics mean nothing.

Again, I'm not sure we can conclude anything.

Originally posted by Zesc:

...I just realized that if Ultimopolis is exclusive to Judas' devotees, this means the UCEYs and ICEY must be followers of him to get there... or?

Not if they are constructs. The intro says ICEY has no memories and no past. Maybe no past is literal: she wasn't uploaded like the residents, she was built/created/programmed there.

Originally posted by Zesc:

That other board is actually having a term (idk if it is a serious one used in philosophy or just forum slang) which i just can't remember. Whenever a premise would make arguing about it meaningless. ARGHHHHH I AM FEELING MY WRATH BURNING LIKE THE FIRES OF HELL BECAUSE I CAN'T REMEMBER! But neither do i have to time to dig through the literal millions of posts in a forum that is older than me.

[/quote]
Yeah I'm having a bit of frustration as well because I seem to recall once discovering a Wikipedia page that described either the same or a very similar kind of argument to mine. I did some quick searching and at least found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_nihilism I have no doubt that this is a discussed topic in philosophy, given the pages my search turned up (here if you're interested: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=wikipedia+self-defeating+meaning+nihilism&t=ffsb&ia=web).

Finally, there's something I am somehow slightly wary to broach since the speculation is fun, but I'm not actually sure how good the writing is in ICEY. I mean that literally. There are definitely individual part of the writing that feel like sort of blah delivery to me, or like they are trying to be deeper than they actually sound. However, some of this could be intentional. Even the game levels have some weird elements that feel like bad design: Why is the cabin so time-worn while there is a fire hose leaking water in the subway? Surely there should not be a fresh puddle of water? But maybe it's intentional? After all, at least on one level of analysis it is the Narrator's "game", and based on the emails and his attitude he was kind of a poor designer in some ways and may have had to finish the game more or less alone using the pieces his other team members made. This also explains the liberal re-use of some scenes: He caused his artist to quit, so...

Getting back on track... one open question is whether the devs actually thought about the plot as deeply as we're trying to. It is possible that part of the purpose was to give the sense of confusion and mystery by deliberately crafting a story that doesn't give enough information. after all, the menu does mention that they reserve "right of final interpretation". It sort of implies that interpretation is deliberately difficult.

That brings me to another concept: As far as I can tell, there are multiple ways or levels on which to interpret a message (in the general sense of a communication, such as this game). I doubt this is a complete list without flaws, just what I've arrived at so far.

1. Personal interpretation: Direct interpretation via your personal motivations, perspective, and bias, relating the message to your personal goal/meaning structure. What does it mean in your eyes - how does it relate to your model of reality and your goals? How objective and thorough this is will depend on how objective and thorough your thinking is.
2. As the communicator intended: This is accomplished to the degree you can determine the communicator's motivations and perspective and successfully understand their message and how it relates to those. Many arguments get nowhere because the different sides fail to even attempt this. A part of this is the question, "did they even communicate what they intended?"
3. As others may receive it: This is accomplished to the degree you can determine the motivations and perspectives of others receiving the message, and figure out how they will interpret and respond to it.
4. Utilitarian: "What is the most useful way to approach this?" Interpretation aimed towards action, based on some goal. Reinterpretation. Maximizing meaning. This involves tailoring a perspective from which to interpret the message. This overlaps with personal interpretation but not completely, I think, because we aren't always utilitarians. This would relate to how some people interpret religious texts in ways aimed at dominating others, and others aimed at helping others, as well as various ways that we use fictional stories or ideas as aides and guides. The phrase "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" seems relevant to this approach.

Note that these apply both on the conscious and subconscious levels. For instance, when people worry about the effects of violence in media (an example of No. 3), the more potent concern tends to be about the unconscious effects, not so much that people will consciously decide, "There's a lot of killing in movies, so I should probably try it out."

So there are multiple possible targets for discussion here. Looking at No. 2, it could be that the story simply has holes or is piecemeal, either deliberately or not. Or there might be some goal and meaning to the story we have yet to arrive at.

On the other hand, there are pretty much limitless stories we could craft between the cracks of what we've been given. There's always the question of, "what's the most interesting interpretation?" i.e. the realm of headcanon.

On a practical level I think having all the story fragments visible would allow for a tentative timeline to be laid out. One saving grace is that this plot doesn't seem to engage in too much complicated time-shenanigans. It's basically a matter of order of events, figuring out how many levels on which the plot is operating, determining how those relate to each other (or don't), and which characters and plot elements occupy which levels. I'm not sure if saying this helps, but that's how I see the task of trying to understand this plot.