Armour, barriers et al.....

[Gonzo]

Still can't get my head around the differences between the "solid" armour and the barrier armour. Barrier type armour is lighter and regenerates but (presumably) it must offer some disadvantages over the solid, heavier plate armour (else why would you use anything other than barrier armour)?


Is there some damage types that effect barrier in a different way (such as barrier being only 50% effective against a certain damage type/weapon)?

I've seen lots of handy guides on the weapons with DPS, heat generation etc all neatly shown on spreadsheets. But the topic of armour seems a bit more of a dark art (or the info isn't displayed anywhere). So anyone know the answer on this one (or has any links to a guide that does cover armour that I just haven't managed to find yet?

[Multox]

Armor with barriers generally have less total armor so they aren't as good against heavy alpha bursts.

[Tactical Drongo]

also barriers regeneration is limited

[Donovan]

Far as I'm aware, barrier acts like a sort of first-line defense shield that can regenerate over time (Check lower-left corner, you'll have a bar of liquid fix that starts full and is depleted over time). I've also done quite a bit of digging, and I'm going to assume everything does a 1:1 ratio of damage whether it's to armor or integrity EXCEPT concussion damage, which is dealt to pilots directly.

That liquid fix they consume during battles is taken straight from your overworld supply of liquid fix, which means instead of repairing armor integrity, you're having to repair barrier using it. But, as far as I'm aware, that repair is generally 'instant' and doesn't have to be done over time like integrity.

[Aestrea]

Barrier generally have more overall armor if you deplete the 250% regeneration threshold but the capacity of the hp is immediately less than regular parts. It's great if you want to abuse overheating firing since the battles are so short anyway and the heat chips away at the barrier but can immediately regen once you stop overheating and stay in top form. They are also lighter than their counterpart.

[roy2x]

Barrier is great. Pure armor might have a bigger number overall and is supposedly better when it comes to taking a huge alpha you are not supposed to be taking big hits like that anyways. If I could I would always use an armor with barrier. Problem is most of them do not have the mod slots I want to use.

[Donovan]

Originally posted by roy2x:

Barrier is great. Pure armor might have a bigger number overall and is supposedly better when it comes to taking a huge alpha you are not supposed to be taking big hits like that anyways. If I could I would always use an armor with barrier. Problem is most of them do not have the mod slots I want to use.

That, or they tend to have horrible dissipation or overall low effective HP when combining the raw base numbers. Game supposedly teaches you that heavier parts have worse dissipation, but honestly, Vidar parts can't be beat when it comes to actual HP to dissipation ratio.

As a comparison, let's look at Vidar, which is a 100% integrity part, and compare it to some other parts. All numbers used will be mocked up as level 50 rares, no perks/modules considered.

Vidar Upper: 31.1 mass, 7,325 integrity, 0 barrier, 8.8 dissipation
Helge Upper: 29.7 mass, 4,326 integrity, 720 barrier (14%), 5.9 dissipation
Arrow 3H Upper: 29.0 mass, 2,238 integrity, 1,864 barrier (45%), 4.6 dissipation

Knox 2M Upper: 25.9 mass, 4,883 integrity, 0 barrier, 7.0 dissipation
Blackbird Upper: 25.1 mass, 2,767 integrity, 981 barrier (26%), 7.9 dissipation
Arrow 2M Upper: 25.9 mass, 1,831 integrity, 1,355 barrier (43%), 6.7 dissipation

Knox 1L Upper: 22.9 mass, 3,785 integrity, 0 barrier, 8.3 dissipation
Arrow 1L Upper: 22.9 mass, 3,052 integrity, 643 barrier (17%), 7.0 dissipation
Tsubasa Upper: 21 mass, 814 integrity, 1,583 barrier (66%), 9.0 dissipation

Now, assuming you're building your mechs for mobility via dashing and thrusters, a full suit of Vidar can get the max range of 48 with two Booster modules (One of which can be uncommon instead of rare, doesn't matter). Taking nothing else into consideration, Vidar provides by far the best ratio of HP to cooling to mobility of any part in the game at the moment. There's just about no reason to take anything else, ESPECIALLY when considering destruction of the upper part of the mech means pilot death.

Sure, you're not SUPPOSED to be taking damage, but taking damage isn't a question of if, it's a question of WHEN. It WILL happen sooner or later whether you like it or not. Sure, could probably get by with one less Booster module using medium parts, but if that means cutting your total HP in half for the exact same level of mobility... then why?

[roy2x]

Oh yes you will be taking damage. Chip damage. If you are taking enough damage to take out half of your chest integrity in one turn then that is a skill issue. Arrow 1L is my favorite chest because of slots and barrier. Blackbird is so bad for an experimental set though I would use blackbird arms instead of vidar if i can find the damn things. I dont think anyone uses anything but blue elbrus for pants.

[Donovan]

I ask again, why use a part with half the HP if mobility is the same and cooling is generally the same or worse?

Doing the math, you'd have 21 dissipation between Arrow 1L Upper, 2x Blackbird arms, and Elbrus legs before modules and perks.

With a full Vidar set you'd have 25.1.

So again, why take less HP when you can take more? Sure, chip damage regenerates with barrier, but in the event you do end up needing to take sustained or spike damage, more HP is better.

Vidar gets you 2x mobility and 2x offensive slots.

Your setup gets 4x offensive, 1x mobility.

EDIT: Just ran the numbers assuming Cooling 3 and full Heatsink 3's (4x for your setup, 2x for full Vidar). Came back with 38.977 for Vidar, 42.67 for Arrow 1L/Elbrus/2x Blackbird.

So unless you're running 100% cooling, dissipation is probably going to be the same or worse. I've not really found a good justification for any mods that modify range or scatter, long ago ditched my shotgunner's setup for a full UHMG Vulcan, decked out the rest of my team with AR2 Bursts and my marksman with whichever DMR deals concussive damage.

Everybody is kit out to knock out pilots, raw damage doesn't matter, range isn't an issue when they all have 45+ boost range. Heat isn't an issue on any of them, at all, and having an 0.4s duration on the Burst attacks is just king, both for knocking out targets and just straight-up destroying mechs.

[Mosey]

I think of it as if barriers are force shields that have a finite amount of charge, but since they aren't traditional armor they also weigh a lot less. Good for chip damage on fast units, but less adept at shrugging off direct hits.

Personally I like running barrier on things like tower shields while the mech itself uses minimal, if any, barrier. This leaves all my charge for the shield itself, and if it gets blown up my physical armor seems better in general.

If barrier didn't deplete base resources, it would be a lot more attractive to me. Sure, a barrier unit might repair 'faster' or not need base repair at all but it still uses the resources as if it did so ultimately I think standard armor types are superior in most cases.

[roy2x]

Originally posted by Donovan:

I ask again, why use a part with half the HP if mobility is the same and cooling is generally the same or worse?

Doing the math, you'd have 21 dissipation between Arrow 1L Upper, 2x Blackbird arms, and Elbrus legs before modules and perks.

With a full Vidar set you'd have 25.1.

So again, why take less HP when you can take more? Sure, chip damage regenerates with barrier, but in the event you do end up needing to take sustained or spike damage, more HP is better.

Vidar gets you 2x mobility and 2x offensive slots.

Your setup gets 4x offensive, 1x mobility.

EDIT: Just ran the numbers assuming Cooling 3 and full Heatsink 3's (4x for your setup, 2x for full Vidar). Came back with 38.977 for Vidar, 42.67 for Arrow 1L/Elbrus/2x Blackbird.

So unless you're running 100% cooling, dissipation is probably going to be the same or worse. I've not really found a good justification for any mods that modify range or scatter, long ago ditched my shotgunner's setup for a full UHMG Vulcan, decked out the rest of my team with AR2 Bursts and my marksman with whichever DMR deals concussive damage.

Everybody is kit out to knock out pilots, raw damage doesn't matter, range isn't an issue when they all have 45+ boost range. Heat isn't an issue on any of them, at all, and having an 0.4s duration on the Burst attacks is just king, both for knocking out targets and just straight-up destroying mechs.

The setup is lighter than full vidar so I can get away with using the overdrive reactor because being able to walk even a tiny bit felt more flexible. Stopped caring about full dissipation too so some offensive slots are for scatter mods because i like my fewer shots to land instead of spamming more shots and only really needed enough dissipation for dashing. Using flashpoint thrusters too so not too hot and the shorter range is not that bad with good positioning.
Only the melee mech is built to max dissipation because the overdrive reactor did nothing for him when using heavy melee weapon and shield. So he is the usual 4/48 mobility heavy mech everyone has.

Why go for a setup with less hp? I felt like I did not need it.

[Aereto]

Dissipation tends to be my priority for my heavy carrying a Quick Loader III Vulcan, considering that heat gets less distribution at a shorter firing of 2.2 seconds vs 4 seconds, currently the highest heat dumper of the team at 58.2 compared to everyone else at 45-ish, while 2nd prioritized in heat-efficient thrust with Booster modules where I can dash to range, burst down an enemy into concussion or disarming, and dash to cover.

That being said, there have been times I find myself with poor cover, and high integrity helps for anyone not carrying a heavy or fighting anything that has a railgun (they'll penetrate cover and mechs like an anti-materiel rifle), but armor with barrier helps in maps with decent or great cover because glancing blows will add up over time as the battle drags on, and that damage will have to be repaired in base, which you may or may not have enough time for a second engagement to fully repair.

Weight is a big matter for mobility units; for a heavy like the Vidar, the Thrust is more important than Power with the dissipation to match, though lights will need Power more to cover more ground and save the heat for their weapons with concussion.

But yes, I am more styled as a Mobile Infantry Squad with reliance on cover and concussion, and my base is geared more towards Blitzkrieg strategic operations to move and strike quickly before anyone calls for backup.

[Gonzo]

So basically we're saying that the advantages of barrier type armour is offset by lower heat dissipation (I'd hate to be a heavy walker in barrier type armour trying to use a sniper rifle then :D ).


The lower overall stats (integrity plus barrier vs the integrity of "pure" armour types) is kind of offset by the fact that you do recover more hitpoints during the game turns. And the lower weight is of course a no brainer when it comes to being an advantage.


But it seems overall that we're better off trying to use barrier type armour over the solid "plate" versions (not sure if there's any differences for the modules between the two armour types). There's a few niche builds where the solid armour is used, but overall the barrier armour seems to be the preferred option for most players.

[Jaynestown]

The other difference, though minor, is the total HP vs HP over time. A barrier mech might have a few hundred hp over the match, when you factor in the 250%. But there are also some high damage per round weapons like the sniper rifle and slug missile. If a couple of those hit the same area it's gone and it doesn't ever get to regenerate. Torso kills the pilot permanently. Legs crashes the mech. Arm prevents just of that weapon.

I think this will have a bigger impact if they fix defensive mods, like reinforced plate. Right now those only impact the base stats from level one. So light and hollow are supremely overpowered as you get higher level gear.

[Kaerius]

Originally posted by Donovan:

As a comparison, let's look at Vidar, which is a 100% integrity part, and compare it to some other parts. All numbers used will be mocked up as level 50 rares, no perks/modules considered.

You're leaving sets out there that have better dissipation, ie: Bein.

[Donovan]

Originally posted by Kaerius:

Originally posted by Donovan:

As a comparison, let's look at Vidar, which is a 100% integrity part, and compare it to some other parts. All numbers used will be mocked up as level 50 rares, no perks/modules considered.

You're leaving sets out there that have better dissipation, ie: Bein.

Never said Vidar has the BEST dissipation, said it has one of the best dissipation-to-HP ratios in the game.

Bein parts have the HIGHEST dissipation, sure, but they also only have around half the total HP of a Vidar part (Without factoring barrier regen over time).

Let's take a level 10 rare part of each for comparison.

Vidar upper: 8.8 dissipation to 1,797 integrity
Vidar lower: 6.3 dissipation to 1,283 integrity
Vidar arms: 5.0 dissipation to 1,027 integrity

Bein upper: 9.9 dissipation to 805 total HP (Integrity+Barrier, raw number)
Bein lower: 7.1 dissipation to 575 total HP (Integrity+Barrier, raw number)
Bein arms: 5.7 dissipation to 460 total HP (Integrity+Barrier, raw number)

So Bein upper gets 1.1 more dissipation by sacrificing 992 HP, Bein lower gets 0.8 more dissipation by sacrificing 708 HP, and Bein arms get 0.7 more dissipation by sacrificing 567 HP.

So in total, you're going to get 3.3 more dissipation per second in exchange for overall less HP. Sure, Bein parts are also ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ featherweights compared to Vidar, but their upper and arm parts also get crap defensive modules which, at the moment, really aren't worth a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

Math doesn't lie. My 100% Vidar suit is pretty much going to be just about as mobile as a full Bein outfit, have generally twice the raw HP, and the same, if not better, dissipation.

I'll take my Vidar outfit with 2x mobility and 2x offensive to Bein any day. I'll end up getting the same 48 dash distance, don't care about walking distance, and fairly equal dissipation in the end (If not better thanks to the 2x offensive module heatsinks).