For those who didn't like the ending...

[Nalydyenlo]

Can't you just erase the last couple of minutes of the story from your mind and make believe that you arrested Seed and put him in Jail? That's what I did. This ending makes more sense and would explain why you can free roam around an unharmed Hope County afterwards.

[kenundrum]

Originally posted by Exparte:

Originally posted by kenundrum:

True. But not the only thing that provoke emotional reactions.


Yes, but again, I do not think it was because it was a strong story, but more because the ending was poorly written, or all your efforts were nulled because of this coincidence that took place.

It's the Watchdogs thing all over again.

The game still happened, you still had the adventure right? It's just that despite your best efforts ♥♥♥♥ didn't go your way. That's pretty much like real life. Do you remember Burke's speech in the boat? I look at it that way. You did all this stuff but ulltimately the end of the world wasn't something you could have prevented. That sucks sure, but what's the alternative? You kill Joe save the world and get a t-shirt while everyone claps and there's fireworks? Boring. Seen it a billion times.

There is a reason you have seen it a billion times. To find a good ending "boring" is quite odd to me.
Much of what happens in real life is not story worthy. Just because the ending is like what happens in life, doesn't make it a strong story ending. See it every day. Boring.

[Majere]

It's just a bad, nonsensical story, in its entirety. The only way it makes any sense at all is if pretty much everything after you first encounter Faith or Jacob is some sort of hallucination, because none of it makes any sense. You get somehow teleported into the Bliss for some reason and manage to 'rescue' the Marshal from it, only for it to turn out that Faith was mind-controlling him the whole time. You keep teleporting in and out of Jacob's lair, then suddenly you're in the Wolf Den killing Eli but only that last shot actually happens, because no-one else in the place gets so much as a grazed knee.

So yeah, when you take all of that and then finally beat the game only to get what amounts to a giant middle finger, it's no shock that people are annoyed. It's not as if any viable alternative to opposing the Cult militarily is presented, and even if you don't actively seek the Cult out they keep coming after you in hordes, even if you build Resistance simply by doing the fishing quests and finding collectables. The game literally forces you to Shoot All The Mans, then punishes you for Shooting All The Mans. Hurk could have written a better plot.

Which is a shame, because it's still a damn good game and the Heralds and Joseph are all pretty compelling characters. It's just a shame they've been dumped in a game they don't fit into.

[kenundrum]

Originally posted by Exparte:

Nukes falling was supported in the plot.

Not very strongly. I heard the news talking about Korea, but it sounded like what we have heard before with his posturing. When the nuke went off, I though Joseph set if off. I had no clue the world was declining until I saw stuff online after I finished the story.
If Joseph set it off, it would make more sence, then a silly coincidence.

[Exparte]

Originally posted by kenundrum:

Originally posted by Exparte:

Nukes falling was supported in the plot.

Not very strongly. I heard the news talking about Korea, but it sounded like what we have heard before with his posturing. When the nuke went off, I though Joseph set if off. I had no clue the world was declining until I saw stuff online after I finished the story.
If Joseph set it off, it would make more sence, then a silly coincidence.

Have you played it a second time yet? It's so much more obvious the second time through. But that only supports it being a great ending, you can go back and say, ah I totally missed that before.

[Exparte]

Originally posted by kenundrum:

Originally posted by Exparte:

It's the Watchdogs thing all over again.

The game still happened, you still had the adventure right? It's just that despite your best efforts ♥♥♥♥ didn't go your way. That's pretty much like real life. Do you remember Burke's speech in the boat? I look at it that way. You did all this stuff but ulltimately the end of the world wasn't something you could have prevented. That sucks sure, but what's the alternative? You kill Joe save the world and get a t-shirt while everyone claps and there's fireworks? Boring. Seen it a billion times.

There is a reason you have seen it a billion times. To find a good ending "boring" is quite odd to me.
Much of what happens in real life is not story worthy. Just because the ending is like what happens in life, doesn't make it a strong story ending. See it every day. Boring.

I wasn't trying to imply feel good endings are bad, I was actually thinking of New Hope's ending when I wrote that. Those endings are good too. I'm just saying, a good ending flows from the setup before it. The plot predicts the ending. The objective measure of good writing is different than a subjective opinion. You could say, for example, you didn't like the story because you prefer stories that make you feel as though you matter more, but also admit that from a writing perspective it's still good writing.

[Syntax Error]

Originally posted by kenundrum:

There is a reason you have seen it a billion times. To find a good ending "boring" is quite odd to me.

Some people think "Bleak = Deep". You can have deep bleak endings but you can just as easily have trite and eye-rolling bleak endings. Likewise, as you said, there's a reason why so many stories end in victory and it doesn't make it "boring" or somehow less credible than dying flowers and rainstorms against a grave marker.

[Syntax Error]

Originally posted by Exparte:

You could say, for example, you didn't like the story because you prefer stories that make you feel as though you matter more, but also admit that from a writing perspective it's still good writing.

It wasn't good writing. It was a deus ex machina gotcha that the best justification people can come up with are "Well, there was a radio broadcast you maybe heard" (which still doesn't support nuking Nowheresville, Montana) and "It sucks less the second time when you already know the ending".

[kenundrum]

Originally posted by Exparte:

Originally posted by kenundrum:

Not very strongly. I heard the news talking about Korea, but it sounded like what we have heard before with his posturing. When the nuke went off, I though Joseph set if off. I had no clue the world was declining until I saw stuff online after I finished the story.
If Joseph set it off, it would make more sence, then a silly coincidence.

Have you played it a second time yet? It's so much more obvious the second time through. But that only supports it being a great ending, you can go back and say, ah I totally missed that before.

No, I haven't play it a second time. I didn't want to lose my progress, and there is no new game + yet. Or even a second save slot. Some odd developer oversight or misguided tactic to not have those.
I probably would notice the plot line more, as i would be looking for it. But I didn't see it the first time. That is my point. The radio sounded like the nations posturing, like they do now. I must have missed some pretty important things. Like Russia being attacked. Plus no characters in the game said anything about it either. You think they would have if Russia was attacked, or if missles started flying.

[big stupid jellyfish]

Originally posted by Exparte:

A. Coincidence for Joe, not for me the audience.

How is the timing not a coincidence for the audience? We experience things the same time as the characters within the story no?

B. You are meant to resist the Seeds. The story sets you up to find them untrustworthy and immoral. That was designed into it. Think the opposite of 'save the cat'

I don't see any scenario where anyone who does what the seeds do can be seen as 'good' or 'moral'. They are so blatantly evil that there is no possible way to justify their actions. The story can set up what it wants, but if they want me to feel conflicted in retrospect, give them some redeeming qualities lol.

C. They want to save as many people as they could, especially the strong. The fact they didn't just kill you and your friends despite the many opportunities kind of muddies the water on them a bit eh? They weren't merely homicidal which is what so many seem to want to dismiss them as. These antagonists are more complex than that.

They are not complex, they are stupid people who go against their own values and ideology for plot convenience. There is no reason for the deputy to be the focus of these villains, they just seem to magically know that he's the main char, therefore they kidnap this one dude and monologue at him for 10 minutes every couple hours, then they let him go. It's retarded.

Think about Joker in DarkKnight. He confused Bruce because often antagonists want something, joker only wanted to watch the world burn. The seeds are trying to save humanity not burn down the world, they were sad to think about nuclear apocalypse, not celebrating.

The seeds also want to watch the world burn, that's the whole point of starting a doomsday cult. The difference here is that Batman is a superhero, he is a symbol that people believe in and draw hope from, joker hates all that and wants everyone to create chaos, he wants people to fight each other and adopt his nihilistic philosophy. His focus on Batman makes sense.

The deputy is none of that. He's a random cop who happens to be resistant to mind control drugs Yet the seed try to convert him no matter the cost. It doesn't make sense for their characters or their ideology. It's garbage-tier writing.

D. One could argue all of human existence is ultimately meaningless.

One could. Other games have done that far better though. Doesn't really work for Far Cry imo.

Our lives only matter as we live them, here and now. Your actions matter pre the bombs. They only appear to not matter post bombs. But really they still mattered, they just didn't produce the outcome you wanted. That's what disappointment and regret is all about.

Unless there is some kind of afterlife where we're judged for our actions then no, it doesn't matter what we did. We murdered a bunch of redneck cultists because they were evil and we wanted to save the good people. Then the good people get nuked by someone completely unrelated.
Tragic endings work if they provide satisfying endings to character arcs, give closure and send an important message in the process. FC5 did none of that. It's just "Nihilism, cuz we're edgy now" or something.

E. DeM is a plot device that comes from no where and has no basis in the story, no set up. DeM here might be, you fight joe, joe is about to kill you then God himself shoots lighting to kill Joe, the end. That's DeM. There is no support in the story that god is actually real. Because of all the foreshadowing, the ending isn't DeM, it's predicted.

How is some completely unrelated entity that was never introduced suddenly nuking everyone not a deus ex machina? If the cult had used the nukes themselves, then that would have been fine...ish. Currently, it's just ridiculous that some evil dude who was shown to be in the wrong time and time again suddenly gets his wish fulfilled and is able to predict the apocalypse with perfect accuracy once he's beaten.

F. I think the message if any is that violence is a cycle and that cycle can escalate into total destruction.

How did you come to this conclusion? Our actions didn't escalate anything, we were completely blameless in the outbreak of the nuclear war? What cycle of violence is there?

[Exparte]

Originally posted by kenundrum:

Originally posted by Exparte:

Have you played it a second time yet? It's so much more obvious the second time through. But that only supports it being a great ending, you can go back and say, ah I totally missed that before.

No, I haven't play it a second time. I didn't want to lose my progress, and there is no new game + yet. Or even a second save slot. Some odd developer oversight or misguided tactic to not have those.
I probably would notice the plot line more, as i would be looking for it. But I didn't see it the first time. That is my point. The radio sounded like the nations posturing, like they do now. I must have missed some pretty important things. Like Russia being attacked.

Oh yea totally, that's why Joe (I think it was him) says, "You hear the same news I do." The implication being we see the world headed that way, why don't we believe the end is coming?

Starting over isn't so painful, they throw so much money and perks at you I finished both playthroughs with more money than I wanted and like 20 extra perk points. On a third playthrough now in co op.

Regarding the nukes, I sort of assumed it was DPRK and they failed with to hit DC or somewhere more relevant. Maybe USA shot them down over Montana intentionally? I'm no expert on nukes. Do they still detonate if being shot down?

[Exparte]

Originally posted by ⚡️ G92 ⚡:

Originally posted by Syntax Error:

Some people think "Bleak = Deep". You can have deep bleak endings but you can just as easily have trite and eye-rolling bleak endings. Likewise, as you said, there's a reason why so many stories end in victory and it doesn't make it "boring" or somehow less credible than dying flowers and rainstorms against a grave marker.

Yeah man imagine if Game of Thrones end with the white walkers apocalypse victory ppl would get really pissed at the writters and feel cheated after so many seasons getting invested in the world and plot its kinda the situation in this game.

People were pissed after the red wedding. But they came back and said, ah but it was good writing. Liking something personally and whether or not it's bad writing are two separate things.

[kenundrum]

Originally posted by Exparte:

Originally posted by kenundrum:

No, I haven't play it a second time. I didn't want to lose my progress, and there is no new game + yet. Or even a second save slot. Some odd developer oversight or misguided tactic to not have those.
I probably would notice the plot line more, as i would be looking for it. But I didn't see it the first time. That is my point. The radio sounded like the nations posturing, like they do now. I must have missed some pretty important things. Like Russia being attacked.

Oh yea totally, that's why Joe (I think it was him) says, "You hear the same news I do." The implication being we see the world headed that way, why don't we believe the end is coming?

Starting over isn't so painful, they throw so much money and perks at you I finished both playthroughs with more money than I wanted and like 20 extra perk points. On a third playthrough now in co op.

Maybe it is not painful, but there are some things I didn't like doing, like getting so many of a certain animal, or so many granade kills. I know it is nothing crazy, but I wasn't too fond of the perk system, and going through it again. I thought about it a number of times, and I would know better where to spend my perks the second time. But doing all the prepper stashes again (first time was great) and using weapons I normally wouldn't use again, doesn't appeal to me.

[big stupid jellyfish]

Originally posted by Exparte:

Originally posted by ⚡️ G92 ⚡:

Yeah man imagine if Game of Thrones end with the white walkers apocalypse victory ppl would get really pissed at the writters and feel cheated after so many seasons getting invested in the world and plot its kinda the situation in this game.

People were pissed after the red wedding. But they came back and said, ah but it was good writing. Liking something personally and whether or not it's bad writing are two separate things.

The red wedding made sense, it was supported by character motivations and we know about all the actors and their relations beforehand.
The GoT equivalent of FC5's ending would be Daenerys (or better yet, some completely new character, who was never introduced before, but who also has dragons) riding her dragons over to Westeros, burning all the Starks for absolutely no reason and then ♥♥♥♥ off back to Essos.

[Syntax Error]

Originally posted by Exparte:

Regarding the nukes, I sort of assumed it was DPRK and they failed with to hit DC or somewhere more relevant. Maybe USA shot them down over Montana intentionally? I'm no expert on nukes. Do they still detonate if being shot down?

If you have to start trying to fanwank excuses why the deus ex machina happened in Montana, I think we're past the argument for it being good writing

[Exparte]

Originally posted by big stupid jellyfish:

Originally posted by Exparte:

A. Coincidence for Joe, not for me the audience.

How is the timing not a coincidence for the audience? We experience things the same time as the characters within the story no?

B. You are meant to resist the Seeds. The story sets you up to find them untrustworthy and immoral. That was designed into it. Think the opposite of 'save the cat'

I don't see any scenario where anyone who does what the seeds do can be seen as 'good' or 'moral'. They are so blatantly evil that there is no possible way to justify their actions. The story can set up what it wants, but if they want me to feel conflicted in retrospect, give them some redeeming qualities lol.

C. They want to save as many people as they could, especially the strong. The fact they didn't just kill you and your friends despite the many opportunities kind of muddies the water on them a bit eh? They weren't merely homicidal which is what so many seem to want to dismiss them as. These antagonists are more complex than that.

They are not complex, they are stupid people who go against their own values and ideology for plot convenience. There is no reason for the deputy to be the focus of these villains, they just seem to magically know that he's the main char, therefore they kidnap this one dude and monologue at him for 10 minutes every couple hours, then they let him go. It's retarded.

Think about Joker in DarkKnight. He confused Bruce because often antagonists want something, joker only wanted to watch the world burn. The seeds are trying to save humanity not burn down the world, they were sad to think about nuclear apocalypse, not celebrating.

The seeds also want to watch the world burn, that's the whole point of starting a doomsday cult. The difference here is that Batman is a superhero, he is a symbol that people believe in and draw hope from, joker hates all that and wants everyone to create chaos, he wants people to fight each other and adopt his nihilistic philosophy. His focus on Batman makes sense.

The deputy is none of that. He's a random cop who happens to be resistant to mind control drugs Yet the seed try to convert him no matter the cost. It doesn't make sense for their characters or their ideology. It's garbage-tier writing.

D. One could argue all of human existence is ultimately meaningless.

One could. Other games have done that far better though. Doesn't really work for Far Cry imo.

Our lives only matter as we live them, here and now. Your actions matter pre the bombs. They only appear to not matter post bombs. But really they still mattered, they just didn't produce the outcome you wanted. That's what disappointment and regret is all about.

Unless there is some kind of afterlife where we're judged for our actions then no, it doesn't matter what we did. We murdered a bunch of redneck cultists because they were evil and we wanted to save the good people. Then the good people get nuked by someone completely unrelated.
Tragic endings work if they provide satisfying endings to character arcs, give closure and send an important message in the process. FC5 did none of that. It's just "Nihilism, cuz we're edgy now" or something.

E. DeM is a plot device that comes from no where and has no basis in the story, no set up. DeM here might be, you fight joe, joe is about to kill you then God himself shoots lighting to kill Joe, the end. That's DeM. There is no support in the story that god is actually real. Because of all the foreshadowing, the ending isn't DeM, it's predicted.

How is some completely unrelated entity that was never introduced suddenly nuking everyone not a deus ex machina? If the cult had used the nukes themselves, then that would have been fine...ish. Currently, it's just ridiculous that some evil dude who was shown to be in the wrong time and time again suddenly gets his wish fulfilled and is able to predict the apocalypse with perfect accuracy once he's beaten.

F. I think the message if any is that violence is a cycle and that cycle can escalate into total destruction.

How did you come to this conclusion? Our actions didn't escalate anything, we were completely blameless in the outbreak of the nuclear war? What cycle of violence is there?

A. I'm not saying it's not coincidence, I'm saying it's not surprising or unpredicted from the plot. Also we experience far more than the characters do, they don't talk to the antagonists like we do, etc.
B. I'm not suggesting the Seeds are good under your morals or even mine, I'm saying they are good under their own morals, they are doing what they believe will save humanity.
C. I think it's Jacob who says, "You're a tool." But before that, they are trying to save you. They could have killed you many times, they want to save people, especially the strong. You just disagree with their methods, as do I.
D. Doomsday cults are a reaction to fear. They aren't trying to create the apocalypse they are trying to survive it. Joe became pyschologically damaged when his wife was killed. Actually, if you know any real preppers, they almost always have some sort of trauma in their past. They live in fear of the future.
E. DeM is a specific plot device where some unexpected and unsubstantiated thing swoops in to save the day. Is it really unexpected that a game about nuclear war doomsday cults wouldn't have nuclear war in it? No? Then it's not DeM. The end is suggested, talked about, the NPCs worrry about it, etc. The end was the whole point for the cults existence in the first place. So, not DeM.

F. That's just my personal interpretation. I think FC3 dealt with violence being addicting as it's a form of power. I think FC5 deals with violence escalating into total destruction where no one is the winner.