Devs, rebalance game! Enemy spaming ruins stealth and turns it into Benny Hill chase!

[v00d00m4n]

Devs - please rebalance the game!

Huge spam of enemies in one location just ruins stealth, because there is no room to avoid detection as enemies are everywhere and you avoid one and 10 more detect you and then game turns into Benny Hill show ending when you run away... just without that music:

https://youtu.be/XaP-uRfBBdY?t=77

Placement of enemies is not smart, its pretty random, you have to not just reduce their numbers and make sure that player can walk by without detection but you also has to change placement of enemies.

You are killing game potential to be a stealth game by turning it into some dumb zombie chase run and gun.

[a basic bitch]

This isn't a "stealth game." The game doesn't end when you're seen. It is actually hard to get caught if you don't do something stupid like teach them to sprint in the first cycle.

[v00d00m4n]

if this aint stealth game - what it is? A Benny Hill Chase simulator?
If that aint stealth, why game pushes stealth and why the ♥♥♥♥ every time you kill one or two clones - blackout happens and respawn AI? Game punishing you for not acting stealthy, yet it does not give any room to act stealthy because every room is flooded with ridiculus numbers of enemies that covers almost entire level with their vision cones.

Do not defend game flaws - game is really poorly balanced and mechanics are really broken and gives nothing but frustration - you cant play it as stealth, you can play it as shooter, you cant play it as survival horror, you cant play it as puzzle, you just cant play it at all because of how flawed every aspect and you just want to rage quit.

[Aranea]

would have been nice if you actually showed gameplay of what you're complaining about...

[Raeven]

Assuming his achievements did not bug out, he's somewhere between the first and final part of chapter 4. I don't recall that area being impossible. But then again I guess I'd say that about any area.

[AvrorA]

Can someone of you start a Steam broadcast, so I'll see for real how you successful in playing this game.

A real live action with all fail attempts, without edited YT walkthroughs. C'mon tech me a lesson. Probably I'll change my negative review, after you convince me that Im playing this game wrong way.

My primetime is GMT+3. So I'll wait for you tomorrow at 16:00 (19 at my place).

[Raeven]

I just did some video's. And there's no editing, I just hit start and stop. I guess I could record more but I don't have the luxury to go and devote time exactly how you want me to. My work and private time doesn't let me.

[v00d00m4n]

Originally posted by SpARaeven:

I just did some video's. And there's no editing, I just hit start and stop. I guess I could record more but I don't have the luxury to go and devote time exactly how you want me to. My work and private time doesn't let me.

after how many trials and errors you did that? 10 ? 20? Maybe we are just rage quiting too fast and has way too low level of tolerance to imbalanced broken game mechanics and not masochistic enought to try it again after 10 failed attempts in a row?

And just in case - i play other stealth actions, more hardcore, but properly balanced, like Splinter Cell Chaos Theory (benchmark of stealth games up to date) or Thief 3 with minimalist mod or Hitman Blood Money with 100% stealth rating. Its not that stealth mechanics hard in echo, it simply broken.

Oh and this

Originally posted by a basic ♥♥♥♥♥:

The problem is that some people seem to expect stealth to work in a game specifically designed and marketed as not a full stealth game.

There are definitely sections that are possible to complete undetected. Being seen is not the end of the game. Echoes cannot catch you unless you teach them your escape methods, so a large part of getting all the collectibles and staying alive is to plot a path that allows you to ditch all your pursuers with a single action (i.e. jumping off balcony, vaulting, open/close door, sprint). It gets even easier if you plan your escape during the blackouts, then you can use the same tools again.

Just remember the echoes all stop for a few moments when the lights turn on, which allows you enough time to lose them (assuming you didn't teach them to sprint) or to break sight and hide.

Ill copy paste answer from another thread:

if this aint stealth game - what is it? A Benny Hill Chase simulator?
If that aint stealth, why game pushes stealth and why the ♥♥♥♥ every time you kill one or two clones - blackout happens and respawn AI? Game punishing you for not acting stealthy, yet it does not give any room to act stealthy because every room is flooded with ridiculus numbers of enemies that covers almost entire level with their vision cones.

Do not defend game flaws - game is really poorly balanced and mechanics are really broken and gives nothing but frustration - you cant play it as stealth, you can play it as shooter, you cant play it as survival horror, you cant play it as puzzle, you just cant play it at all because of how flawed every aspect and you just want to rage quit.

Game is marketed as stealth game with a twist, yet stealth is its core, and core is broken.
Been seen actually could be end of game, because you cant just hide easily as all areas are really open and there barely a place to hide, and once you stopped - in most cases game turns into mindless crappy zombie shooter where most likely you will loose once they will learn to run and they will since stealth is so broken you always end up stopped and running away from them. YOu have to be very lucky (chance is random) to get away stealthy. Because i repeat - THERE ARE WAY TOO MANY ENEMIES IN AREA, AND THEIR PLACEMENT IS DUMB AND UNTESTED, THEY ALL CAN SEE EACH OTHER AND LIVE NOT SPACE FOR STEALTH MOVEMENT!

Also, man, you are so delussional - what you say make no sense at al! For example you say that you can run away during blackouts - ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥! It was stated in a game that blackouts overload your suit so you can move, just like enemies, you cant run away during black outs, and lights turning off just for a few seconds befor full blackout, and once lights on you barey have a 2 seconds, not enough to do anything until you are very lucky.

I repeat - game is imbalanced, enemies respawn way too fast, there are way too many of them, their placement show no effort from devs to even try to design safe stealth route - i know it because im designer of stealth game myself, actually i bought ECHO because on screenshots and trailers it reminded me my S3 project which also has female character stealthing around on space station, but thing is - when you design stealth game you have to playtest a lot and tweak position and routes of AI a lot, to create a space and time where and when nobody can see you so you can sneak unspotted. There is no such safe routes in ECHO, enemies scattered around almost randomly, in most cases they can see you right when you enter damn room, you cant take down one without detection by anothe r.

This is all needs to be patched out., game is frustrating at the moment, it neither plays like stealth, nor like a shooter or anything else, because of imbalanced state. It just "blind luck" simulator.

[Raeven]

Originally posted by Voodooman:

Originally posted by SpARaeven:

I just did some video's. And there's no editing, I just hit start and stop. I guess I could record more but I don't have the luxury to go and devote time exactly how you want me to. My work and private time doesn't let me.

after how many trials and errors you did that? 10 ? 20? Maybe we are just rage quiting too fast and has way too low level of tolerance to imbalanced broken game mechanics and not masochistic enought to try it again after 10 failed attempts in a row?

Just two? Three if you count the very first time I played through that area. It really is not as complicated as you make it seem. You don't need 10-20 attempts for this.

And I suppose I can add that you telling someone to do something doesn't mean they have to. They don't have to share your idea's. You can copy past that all you want, it won't just make your point any better.

This game was not even remotely frustrating to me. I just played through it. Not without making mistakes or retrying sections, but a retry does not equal frustration.

[Brendan | Shinji16]

No, this isn't a stealth game. No, blackouts are not punishment. Yes, you've missed a lot of the point of what this game is going for. Take a step back, breathe, and re-try this game with a proper mindset where you're not trying to force it to be something it isnt'. There are stealth aspects, but it is *not* a stealth game.

[Greymatter]

It's not just about stealth, nor is it about combat. You have to think on your feet depending on the situation, take advantage of blackouts and hiding, plan what you are going to do then react when things go wrong. Shooting is your last resort esp in day cycles (not so bad if you have a few charges at night and are forced to use them).

Crazy how people complain so much when a game doesn't for once hold your hand throughout.

Sounds like this might be more your style of game:

https://youtu.be/8QuE36_hZuE?t=30s

[Ghaznavid]

You're just not very good and don't like losing.
Think for a bit before proceeding and you'll be able to stealth it quite easily.

[v00d00m4n]

Originally posted by Greymatter:

It's not just about stealth, nor is it about combat. You have to think on your feet depending on the situation, take advantage of blackouts and hiding, plan what you are going to do then react when things go wrong. Shooting is your last resort esp in day cycles (not so bad if you have a few charges at night and are forced to use them).

Crazy how people complain so much when a game doesn't for once hold your hand throughout.

Sounds like this might be more your style of game:

https://youtu.be/8QuE36_hZuE?t=30s

lol at you - says "not about stealth" yet suggests to use stealth tactics just under different name. Man - you a re delussional. Stop your far fetched advocating of really flawed game mechanics that only masochist or denialists (who lie to themselves to feel more comfortable) can enjoy. Game needs to be rebalanced, period. And look at description page and tags - it says STEALTH. So cut the crap already. I dont want to hear this "This game is not stealth" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ anymore.

For ♥♥♥♥ sake - you have radar around your body that shows detection status just like in MGS 4 as core as ♥♥♥♥ part of mechanics which screams "I AM STEALTH GAME", yet you keep denying it just ot feel comfortable about broken as ♥♥♥♥ stealth mechanics, that cause by lazy game and level design and even more lazy, zero effort placement of enemies.

I will repeat again and again until every genius around will understand it - scattering around TONS of enemies, without giving a ♥♥♥♥ that they all cover almost entire area with their vision cones, RUINS STEALTH MECHANICS COMPLETELY, even if "this is not stealth game" or "game with stealth elements"it ruins those elements and makes them useless and frustrating.

P.S. - ECHO is Duty Calls of stealth, so its definetly more of your type of game. I prefer Splinter Cell Chaos Theory, Hitman Blood Money and Thief DS (with minimalist mod and gold patch), there you really need to think and be tactical without any radar that cover character, and with way smarter AI behavior. ECHO has pretty dumb AI, but this game is hard because its LITERALLY FLOODED with dumb ass clones, there is no fun in dealing with over 9000 of dumb clones and acting dumb to make them even more dumber (this is actually what most of defenders sugges - dont do anything so that clones would not do anything, and you can öutsmart these dumb asses). I would rather prefer one really smart AI npc, than over 9000 idiots in every corner that dont outsmart me, but just kill me by unfair numbers of their hordes.

[Raeven]

Repeating yourself does not make your point any better, no different from the other people disagree with. And if people don't agree with you this does not immediately make them delusional. Others can genuinely have a different experience from you. People aren't wrong because they disagree with you.

I doubt people have been telling you to do nothing(and those who have, are wrong). That doesn't get you anywhere either. It is also boring. It is about balance. What actions are an okay risk? Which things can you get away with learning the clones?

Since you seem to enjoy repeating yourself, I will ask you the same thing I asked you elsewhere: what part of the game frustrated you more than the rest? There must have been one area that stood out more than the rest. I am genuinely curious as to why.

[AvrorA]

[SpA]Raeven,
Do you have time to start live broadcast right now?

[Raeven]

Unortunately no. These are all phone posts. :/