Loyalist Successors to Traitor Legions?

[Geo]

During the great Heresy, not all members of the Traitor Legions sided with Horus. Many remained loyal. Most joined the Black Shields (later to become the Deathwatch), some joined the Grey Knights, some continued to fight under the banner of their original legion to try and repair the legions' good names (tho this failed), and lastly many were put amongst the ranks of loyalist chapters by leaders of loyalist legions to shield them from mistargeted retribution.

But I have seen loyalist chapters in the 41st / 42nd millinium with traits oddly similar to the traitor legions. All of these are from "unknown Foundings", several have unknown primarches, and a few that do have a listed primarch exibit traits not well associated with their gene-father.



Here the chapters I have noticed and who I think they are descended from:

Relictors - Iron Warriors (their use of Chaos artifacts as a weapon against Chaos, without submitting to Chaos)

Soul Drinkers (presumed destroyed) - Iron Warriors (again, seeking to use Chaos as a weapon without submitting to it. They also seperate the Emperor from the Imperium in their loyality. They rebelled against the Imperium, tho its because they realized it is a mockery of what the Emperor invisioned)

Blood Gorgons (later to have gone Renegade) - Iron Warriors (similar to the Relictors, they use Chaos as a weapon without submitting to it. They are also logical and practical in many of their combat strategies. They are also fiercely independant, seeing being used by others as a shame. The consider only each other worthy of their loyality.)

Silver Skulls - Word Bearers (due to their rather extreme devotion to the Imperial Cult and refusal to go into battle unless ordained by their Prognosticatum)

Minotaurs - World Eaters (due to their absolute dickatry and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ insane berzerker combat style)

Sons of Antaeus - Death Guard (due to their immense immunity from injury and pain being highly similar to that of the Death Guard)

Blood Ravens - Thousand Sons (due to having an extremely high number of psykers in their ranks, a sect of the Thousands Sons having been called the "Corvidid Cult", their armor colors being similar to that of pre-Heresy Thousand Sons, and a few characters in the lore hinting at a connection as well.)

Red Scorpions - Emperor's Children (due to a complete obscession with their "perfect" and "flawless" chapter gene-seed)

Death Eagles - Emperor's Children (lore states they were once a Millennial of the Emperor's Children who refused to join the rebellion)

Sons of the Phoenix - Emperor's Children (Their chapter name, iconography, and armor colors being painfully similar to pre-Heresy Emperor's Children)

[Geo]

A small side note, I have also seen hints that some successor chapters may actually be descendants of other loyalist legions than they are listed as.

Like the Celestial Lions. They are officially descendants of Imperial Fists, but thier skin is dark (more like the Salamanders), they are more resceptive to orders from outside their chapters (like Salamanders and very unlike Dorn), and they seem to actually care about civilian casualities (like Salamanders and EXTREMELY unlike other Imperial Fist successors)

[baelrune]

silver skulls are rumoured to be iron warrior descendants not word bearers and where did you get the information on blood gorgons?

[Geo]

Originally posted by baelrune:

silver skulls are rumoured to be iron warrior descendants not word bearers and where did you get the information on blood gorgons?

From the novel "Blood Gorgons"

And the only real pointer to the Silver Skulls being iron warriors is their colors and symbol. I looked at the theories on them being IWs, but their doctrines and such are just abouit as opposite Iron Warriors as you can get.

[MSgt Peterson]

This is pretty common knowledge to be honest, you a new 40K lore reader or do you want educate the noobs here? lol

[Geo]

Originally posted by MSgt Peterson:

This is pretty common knowledge to be honest, you a new 40K lore reader or do you want educate the noobs here? lol

The latter. I would also like to hear about any other loyalist successors of traitor legions that I am unaware of.

[gua543]

The Carcharodons are rumored to be descendants of the Night Lords, founded by Sevatar himself. That, or they are remnants of the more brutal members of the Raven Guard that got exiled by Corax when he took command of the legion.

I disagree with you on the origins of some the chapters you listed though.

I think the Soul Drinkers' were proper Imperial Fists that just got ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up by Venerable Dreadnought Daenyathos and his Tzeenthchian buddies.

I'd really like for the Silver Skulls to be descendands of Barabas Dantioch because he's just so badass, but the more I read about them, the more I think they are loyalist Word Bearers. Although once commited to an attack, they don't retreat and even if their Librarians foresee that defeat is inevitable, they still fight on. Very much like the Iron Warriors IMO. Perhaps they are a mix of loyalist remnants of both legions?

The Red Scorpions are proper Word Bearers IMO, with their addoration for the Codex Astartes and them being one the few Space Marine chapters to venerate the Emperor as a god.

[Geo]

Originally posted by gua543:

The Carcharodons are rumored to be descendants of the Night Lords, founded by Sevatar himself. That, or they are remnants of the more brutal members of the Raven Guard that got exiled by Corax when he took command of the legion.

I disagree with you on the origins of some the chapters you listed though.

I think the Soul Drinkers' were proper Imperial Fists that just got ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up by Venerable Dreadnought Daenyathos and his Tzeenthchian buddies.

I'd really like for the Silver Skulls to be descendands of Barabas Dantioch because he's just so badass, but the more I read about them, the more I think they are loyalist Word Bearers. Although once commited to an attack, they don't retreat and even if their Librarians foresee that defeat is inevitable, they still fight on. Very much like the Iron Warriors IMO. Perhaps they are a mix of loyalist remnants of both legions?

The Red Scorpions are proper Word Bearers IMO, with their addoration for the Codex Astartes and them being one the few Space Marine chapters to venerate the Emperor as a god.

It was pretty much confirmed that the Soul Drinkers were not true sons of Dorn. When they were captured and had their geneseed analyized for corruption, it was discovered that they did not have not Dorn's geneseed.

Also the Worder Bearers fight the same way as the Silver Skulls, in that they will fight on even if defeat was foretold. I like Dantioch too, I would love to learn that there is a chapter still around descended from his company (maybe the Relictors?)

And I still say the Red Scorpions are Emperor's Children. Their utter devotion to the Imperial Cult and Codex Astartes is an obscession created from their dedication to perfection. In the modern Imperium, what is seen as more "perfect" than a Space Marine who follows the Codex and Imperial Cult to the letter? It is probably a way for them to keep from going down the same path as their parent legion, via focusing their obscession.

Also yeah, I was thinking of the Carcharodons, the indicators of them being Night Lords are their title of "Shade Lord" (tho an exiled member of the Raven Guard also held that title), that they strike with extreme brutality (which goes above and beyond what Raven Guard will do), they fight in utter silence as a psychological tactic, they are one of the oldest chapters (around 10,000 so they did originate immediately after the Horus Heresy), and they keep themselves very much isolated. The biggest indicator to me is their perspective on the universe: they see most issues as black or white, VERY much like Konrad Kurze. So yeah there are indicators they are Night Lords. (I didnt add them originally because I didnt notice that last part, which to me is the biggest indicator)

[baelrune]

it was revealed in their own book I think it was "red tithe" or something like that, the sharks are raven guard successors not night lords. with the silver skulls I still think they are loyalist iron warriors, mostly because of their scheme and symbol but barabas dantioch was a loyalist iron warrior during the heresy and was in ultramar along with a few other iron warriors during the heresy, it's very likely that the ultramarines took them on since the ultras are known for doing that.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Silver_Skulls
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Barabas_Dantioch

[Geo]

Originally posted by baelrune:

it was revealed in their own book I think it was "red tithe" or something like that, the sharks are raven guard successors not night lords. with the silver skulls I still think they are loyalist iron warriors, mostly because of their scheme and symbol but barabas dantioch was a loyalist iron warrior during the heresy and was in ultramar along with a few other iron warriors during the heresy, it's very likely that the ultramarines took them on since the ultras are known for doing that.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Silver_Skulls
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Barabas_Dantioch

And we have mentioned Dantioch before, but there is no link between him and the Silver Skulls. Its why I mostly judge a chapter based on its actions, not its iconography. I would love for there to be a loyalist IW chapter founded from Dantioch's company, but based on how they act, the Silver Skulls are not that chapter.

The Carcharadons are unconfirmed to be a Raven Guard successor chapter, but given the similarities between the Night Lords and Raven Guard operation strategies it would be easy for loyal Night Lords to claim to be Raven Guard in order to not be executed.

Edit: There is a chapter called the "Space Sharks" that are often confused with the Carcharadons, who are Raven Guard, but their icon and chapter colors are different.

[baelrune]

Originally posted by Remi:

Originally posted by baelrune:

it was revealed in their own book I think it was "red tithe" or something like that, the sharks are raven guard successors not night lords. with the silver skulls I still think they are loyalist iron warriors, mostly because of their scheme and symbol but barabas dantioch was a loyalist iron warrior during the heresy and was in ultramar along with a few other iron warriors during the heresy, it's very likely that the ultramarines took them on since the ultras are known for doing that.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Silver_Skulls
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Barabas_Dantioch

And we have mentioned Dantioch before, but there is no link between him and the Silver Skulls. Its why I mostly judge a chapter based on its actions, not its iconography. I would love for there to be a loyalist IW chapter founded from Dantioch's company, but based on how they act, the Silver Skulls are not that chapter. Also, the Space Sharks and the Carcaradons are different chapters.

i meant carcharodons, I tend to call them space sharks, red tithe is the carcharodon book. being codex compliant is an ultramarine trait I can't find anything about their zealotry anything I can find is more about their librarians rather than their chaplins, where are you getting that information?

[Geo]

Originally posted by baelrune:

Originally posted by Remi:

And we have mentioned Dantioch before, but there is no link between him and the Silver Skulls. Its why I mostly judge a chapter based on its actions, not its iconography. I would love for there to be a loyalist IW chapter founded from Dantioch's company, but based on how they act, the Silver Skulls are not that chapter. Also, the Space Sharks and the Carcaradons are different chapters.

i meant carcharodons, I tend to call them space sharks, red tithe is the carcharodon book. being codex compliant is an ultramarine trait I can't find anything about their zealotry anything I can find is more about their librarians rather than their chaplins, where are you getting that information?

https://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Silver_Skulls#Chapter_Beliefs

Their main trait of pretty much refusing to do ANYTHING unless it has be preordained by a Prognosticator is just way WAY too similar to the Word Bearers and Lorgar, who refused to do anything unless commanded to do so by a "higher power".

[baelrune]

that's fair, i'm an idiot for not looking at that while having the page open. guilliman recognizes these guys as one of his it could be possible that he took on word bearers loyalists after calth and then gave them the coloring of iron warriors due to dantioch having died on ultramar, I imagine lorgar would care much more about having his sons with guilliman than perurabo would.

[Geo]

Originally posted by baelrune:

that's fair, i'm an idiot for not looking at that while having the page open. guilliman recognizes these guys as one of his it could be possible that he took on word bearers loyalists after calth and then gave them the coloring of iron warriors due to dantioch having died on ultramar, I imagine lorgar would care much more about having his sons with guilliman than perurabo would.

Idk how Word Bearers managed to fall in with the Ultramarines, beyond that the Ultramarines are known to have harbored loyalist members of the traitor legions.

Also, for those unaware, when Im talking about how the Word Bearers refuse to act without divine orders, I am talking of this: https://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Word_Bearers#Post-Heresy_2 (2nd paragraph). The Worder Bearers refuse to act unless told to by a Dark Apostle (who are given "divine" orders by the Chaos gods), which is pretty much a 1 - 1 with how the Silver Skulls refused to act unless they are told to by a Prognosticator (who are given "divine" orders by the Emperor of Mankind).