shouldnt the scout and awp be tier 1?

[criptfiv3]

been playing versus more often after the last stand, its kind of a bummer when i get a scout or awp in place of the hunting rifle or military sniper, they can be good but much like any other tier 1: you need to play within their limits to make the best use of them.

it just seems like an obvious thing, the css weapons we're always half assed into the game to make up in germany, but couldnt we even get a small tweak like this?

[sʜᴀ]

Yes

[Lalo Salamanca]

Scout should be tier 0 lol

[JAiZ]

They’ve been Tier 2 ever since the game released, probably because Tier 1 weapons are defined by being exclusively short-ranged.
Having a long-ranged Tier 1 would just buff survivors by taking away the one small weakness they have in early maps: Limited range.

[criptfiv3]

Originally posted by JAiZ:

They’ve been Tier 2 ever since the game released, probably because Tier 1 weapons are defined by being exclusively short-ranged.
Having a long-ranged Tier 1 would just buff survivors by taking away the one small weakness they have in early maps: Limited range.

i mean, sure the shotguns suck at long range, but you do know the mp5 is tier 1 right? that thing is pretty much the tier 1 ak, so i dont think a crappy sniper would work better than other weapons in tier 1 already do, besides the fact most encouters happen in close range in almost every campaign during the start

[Sharpie The Dragon]

Originally posted by criptfiv3:

Originally posted by JAiZ:

They’ve been Tier 2 ever since the game released, probably because Tier 1 weapons are defined by being exclusively short-ranged.
Having a long-ranged Tier 1 would just buff survivors by taking away the one small weakness they have in early maps: Limited range.

i mean, sure the shotguns suck at long range, but you do know the mp5 is tier 1 right? that thing is pretty much the tier 1 ak, so i dont think a crappy sniper would work better than other weapons in tier 1 already do, besides the fact most encouters happen in close range in almost every campaign during the start

No it isn't, it's basically on par with the Silenced SMG.

[SNP]

Originally posted by Sharpie The Dergun:

Originally posted by criptfiv3:

i mean, sure the shotguns suck at long range, but you do know the mp5 is tier 1 right? that thing is pretty much the tier 1 ak, so i dont think a crappy sniper would work better than other weapons in tier 1 already do, besides the fact most encouters happen in close range in almost every campaign during the start

No it isn't, it's basically on par with the Silenced SMG.

it's the M4 of the trio, quite literally.

M4 is the damage/accuracy middle ground between the SCAR and AK. MP5 is the damage/accuracy middle ground to the SMGs... with a crappy reload time to make it undesirable.

[JAiZ]

Originally posted by criptfiv3:

Originally posted by JAiZ:

They’ve been Tier 2 ever since the game released, probably because Tier 1 weapons are defined by being exclusively short-ranged.
Having a long-ranged Tier 1 would just buff survivors by taking away the one small weakness they have in early maps: Limited range.

i mean, sure the shotguns suck at long range, but you do know the mp5 is tier 1 right? that thing is pretty much the tier 1 ak, so i dont think a crappy sniper would work better than other weapons in tier 1 already do, besides the fact most encouters happen in close range in almost every campaign during the start

The MP5 has the same range as the Uzi, and deals less damage than the Silenced SMG. It's generally considered the middle-ground between the Uzi and Mac-10.

There's also plenty of hits throughout the campaigns that only work because the survivors have inaccurate, short-ranged weapons. Imagine trying to set up the deathcharge at the start of Parish 1 with even just a single survivor having a sniper - You'd get one-tapped the millisecond you peek out of cover to attack.

Buffing survivors to allow for easy, long-ranged kills in early maps would do nothing but worsen the game's balance. Balancing even just a single weapon requires a lot more than just changing a number - There's better ways to go about it.

[criptfiv3]

Originally posted by Sharpie The Dergun:

Originally posted by criptfiv3:

i mean, sure the shotguns suck at long range, but you do know the mp5 is tier 1 right? that thing is pretty much the tier 1 ak, so i dont think a crappy sniper would work better than other weapons in tier 1 already do, besides the fact most encouters happen in close range in almost every campaign during the start

No it isn't, it's basically on par with the Silenced SMG.

you can just boot up the game and try it for yourself, the thing is almost a tier 2

[criptfiv3]

Originally posted by JAiZ:

Originally posted by criptfiv3:

i mean, sure the shotguns suck at long range, but you do know the mp5 is tier 1 right? that thing is pretty much the tier 1 ak, so i dont think a crappy sniper would work better than other weapons in tier 1 already do, besides the fact most encouters happen in close range in almost every campaign during the start

The MP5 has the same range as the Uzi, and deals less damage than the Silenced SMG. It's generally considered the middle-ground between the Uzi and Mac-10.

There's also plenty of hits throughout the campaigns that only work because the survivors have inaccurate, short-ranged weapons. Imagine trying to set up the deathcharge at the start of Parish 1 with even just a single survivor having a sniper - You'd get one-tapped the millisecond you peek out of cover to attack.

Buffing survivors to allow for easy, long-ranged kills in early maps would do nothing but worsen the game's balance. Balancing even just a single weapon requires a lot more than just changing a number - There's better ways to go about it.

that assumes the enemy is that skilled, but i do see how those might just be a slightly more powerful pistol though, but this is also a game full of rng.

it would be nice to tweak the scout and awp to make them better fit tier 1 or 2, but as for now i dont think they belong in tier 2

i also dont see the mac10 being better than the mp5 thing, most matches when the mp5 spawns hordes are easily shredded and its quite easier to deal with specials with it than it is with other smgs

[JAiZ]

Originally posted by criptfiv3:

Originally posted by JAiZ:

The MP5 has the same range as the Uzi, and deals less damage than the Silenced SMG. It's generally considered the middle-ground between the Uzi and Mac-10.

There's also plenty of hits throughout the campaigns that only work because the survivors have inaccurate, short-ranged weapons. Imagine trying to set up the deathcharge at the start of Parish 1 with even just a single survivor having a sniper - You'd get one-tapped the millisecond you peek out of cover to attack.

Buffing survivors to allow for easy, long-ranged kills in early maps would do nothing but worsen the game's balance. Balancing even just a single weapon requires a lot more than just changing a number - There's better ways to go about it.

that assumes the enemy is that skilled, but i do see how those might just be a slightly more powerful pistol though, but this is also a game full of rng.

it would be nice to tweak the scout and awp to make them better fit tier 1 or 2, but as for now i dont think they belong in tier 2

i also dont see the mac10 being better than the mp5 thing, most matches when the mp5 spawns hordes are easily shredded and its quite easier to deal with specials with it than it is with other smgs

Landing a headshot on an SI while you have full control as survivor is... really not difficult. Even a completely trash group of players will noticeably benefit from a long-ranged weapon as long as they have a combined IQ above room temperature, especially in maps that are designed around having limited range.

The Mac-10 also objectively outperforms the MP5:

Mac-10
Damage Per Shot: 25
Ammo: 50 / 650
Reload Duration: 2.2667s
Fire Rate: 0.066s
DPS: 225 (379 without reloads)
Max Range: 2200 units
Damage Drop off Multiplier: x0.84

MP5
Damage Per Shot: 26
Ammo: 50 / 650
Reload Duration: 3.0667s
Fire Rate: 0.075s
DPS: 200 (320 without reloads)
Max Range: 2500 units
Damage Drop off Multiplier: x0.84

While the MP5 has 1 damage per shot more than the Mac-10, its slower reload offsets that and decreases its sustained DPS.
Even when ignoring the reload times, the Mac-10 still has better damage output due to it's faster firerate.
The MP5 isn't bad by any means, but the Mac-10 is undeniably the better gun.

[Mizu]

Originally posted by JAiZ:

Originally posted by criptfiv3:

i mean, sure the shotguns suck at long range, but you do know the mp5 is tier 1 right? that thing is pretty much the tier 1 ak, so i dont think a crappy sniper would work better than other weapons in tier 1 already do, besides the fact most encouters happen in close range in almost every campaign during the start

The MP5 has the same range as the Uzi, and deals less damage than the Silenced SMG. It's generally considered the middle-ground between the Uzi and Mac-10.

There's also plenty of hits throughout the campaigns that only work because the survivors have inaccurate, short-ranged weapons. Imagine trying to set up the deathcharge at the start of Parish 1 with even just a single survivor having a sniper - You'd get one-tapped the millisecond you peek out of cover to attack.

Buffing survivors to allow for easy, long-ranged kills in early maps would do nothing but worsen the game's balance. Balancing even just a single weapon requires a lot more than just changing a number - There's better ways to go about it.

Instead of allowing multiple scouts do what a couple of Zonemod servers do. Limit one scout per spawn at the beginning of the level. Imagine smgs, shotguns and then 1 sniper, it can balance the difference of long range and close range. The sniper is the long range player and the shotgunners and smg's are close range to protect the sniper. This can balance both the long and short range arguments. It shouldn't be a multiple pick up but rather only one person gets to pick it up. I would say, the scout would be chosen a lot more, considering at the moment the AWP and scout are ignored by the large majority of the playerbase due to the weakness of them.

[criptfiv3]

Originally posted by JAiZ:

Originally posted by criptfiv3:

that assumes the enemy is that skilled, but i do see how those might just be a slightly more powerful pistol though, but this is also a game full of rng.

it would be nice to tweak the scout and awp to make them better fit tier 1 or 2, but as for now i dont think they belong in tier 2

i also dont see the mac10 being better than the mp5 thing, most matches when the mp5 spawns hordes are easily shredded and its quite easier to deal with specials with it than it is with other smgs

Landing a headshot on an SI while you have full control as survivor is... really not difficult. Even a completely trash group of players will noticeably benefit from a long-ranged weapon as long as they have a combined IQ above room temperature, especially in maps that are designed around having limited range.

The Mac-10 also objectively outperforms the MP5:

Mac-10
Damage Per Shot: 25
Ammo: 50 / 650
Reload Duration: 2.2667s
Fire Rate: 0.066s
DPS: 225 (379 without reloads)
Max Range: 2200 units
Damage Drop off Multiplier: x0.84

MP5
Damage Per Shot: 26
Ammo: 50 / 650
Reload Duration: 3.0667s
Fire Rate: 0.075s
DPS: 200 (320 without reloads)
Max Range: 2500 units
Damage Drop off Multiplier: x0.84

While the MP5 has 1 damage per shot more than the Mac-10, its slower reload offsets that and decreases its sustained DPS.
Even when ignoring the reload times, the Mac-10 still has better damage output due to it's faster firerate.
The MP5 isn't bad by any means, but the Mac-10 is undeniably the better gun.

not trying to say "youre wrong because you are" like some people here, but wouldnt that imply the mac10 would be better at dispersing a horde rather than dealing with targets?

mac10 can be better statwise, but if you'd account how the mp5 can be used and how it behaves much like a weaker assault rifle, wouldnt you argue it can be a better option than the mac10 since it has more similarities to a tier 2 than the smgs? i do speak from experience that i tend to see a more controlled enviroment when using the mp5 over the mac10. doesnt change the fact others may not see it like that, so i invite you guys to test it to see what im talking about in practice

but back to topic:
you'd actually be suprised how many people aim for center mass with sniper rifles instead of heads in this game, while other tier ones can do just that, i argue that the scout and awp arent in a good place to be tier 2

the point of snipers is to deal with SI so its obvious as tier 1 the scout and awp would be the ruin of many enemy teams in versus. but im not saying the scout for example should sometimes spawn in place of a shotgun, im saying that they should have been tier 1 weapons because they are inferior to the non css counterparts, and i think they could see much better implementation if tier 1 snipers were to be a rare weapon that can spawn in certain points of a map instead of saferoom gear.

either way, imo unlike the other css weapons the scout and awp underperform if you dont have perfect accuracy and know the hows of deceleration to get better accuracy as a survivor, and would benefit from a rework of any kind, however if not reworked they dont belong in tier 2 in any way

[criptfiv3]

Originally posted by Mizu:

Originally posted by JAiZ:

The MP5 has the same range as the Uzi, and deals less damage than the Silenced SMG. It's generally considered the middle-ground between the Uzi and Mac-10.

There's also plenty of hits throughout the campaigns that only work because the survivors have inaccurate, short-ranged weapons. Imagine trying to set up the deathcharge at the start of Parish 1 with even just a single survivor having a sniper - You'd get one-tapped the millisecond you peek out of cover to attack.

Buffing survivors to allow for easy, long-ranged kills in early maps would do nothing but worsen the game's balance. Balancing even just a single weapon requires a lot more than just changing a number - There's better ways to go about it.

Instead of allowing multiple scouts do what a couple of Zonemod servers do. Limit one scout per spawn at the beginning of the level. Imagine smgs, shotguns and then 1 sniper, it can balance the difference of long range and close range. The sniper is the long range player and the shotgunners and smg's are close range to protect the sniper. This can balance both the long and short range arguments. It shouldn't be a multiple pick up but rather only one person gets to pick it up. I would say, the scout would be chosen a lot more, considering at the moment the AWP and scout are ignored by the large majority of the playerbase due to the weakness of them.

that would be a good concept, but i dont see scout and awp being saferoom gear, like it was previously pointed some maps do benefit from survivors having to deal with an immediate (and depending on the survivor team) and only ambush in the match were the infected can try to cheap damage survivors to a manageable degree, snipers in that case could totally wreck a setup and i see how bad that would be when it comes to balance

[Mizu]

Well I can't speak on too much, because I have bias towards them, considering I love the AWP and scout, they actually venture a challenge then something like the Military and the AK. Just two blind fire Overpowered weapons with no consequences towards them. I've always seen though that the scout needs to be a tier one that takes the pump shotgun spawnpoints and the AWP requires a realism buff to one shot, that way it fixes all the problems with them and even makes them viable. It's still hard for people to use them considering the animations/sounds and the textures fit terribly inside the games environment. Also not to mention the Scout and AWP have that really REALLY annoying reload glitch where sometimes the gun reloads quick and then other times it doesn't. Really wish that would get patched ngl.

[criptfiv3]

Originally posted by Mizu:

Well I can't speak on too much, because I have bias towards them, considering I love the AWP and scout, they actually venture a challenge then something like the Military and the AK. Just two blind fire Overpowered weapons with no consequences towards them. I've always seen though that the scout needs to be a tier one that takes the pump shotgun spawnpoints and the AWP requires a realism buff to one shot, that way it fixes all the problems with them and even makes them viable. It's still hard for people to use them considering the animations/sounds and the textures fit terribly inside the games environment. Also not to mention the Scout and AWP have that really REALLY annoying reload glitch where sometimes the gun reloads quick and then other times it doesn't. Really wish that would get patched ngl.

i have no idea why use css stuff (im probably speaking out of my ass in this one) but they should have used the csgo models intead like with the ak or deagle.

i like the challenge as well, but most teams hyperfocus on being toxic and winning so its rare you can enjoy these weapons, they would see more chance there if they were tier 1

i never actually noticed a reload bug, you talking about the shoot and shove mechanic similar to the shotguns where you can shoot faster?