Why is there so much bad faith criticism towards the last stand update and it's devs?

[Sandless Apprentice]

Why is this update such a sore spot for certain people? I'm well aware of some of the issues with the update(even if a lot of them got fixed), but haven't met anybody who's properly explained why this update gets hate. Some just spread fallacious claims about the update, some spread slander about JAIZ and the devs or just straight up insult them and Some just hate on people for playing and enjoying the game post last stand. I've never met someone try to explain the problems with this update without being a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. So can someone please explain what the deal is?


edit: some jackass versus player started arguing with other players(including myself) and started ww3. The forum ended up getting locked. This is just a repost

[A Pebble]

Because it didn't add anything interesting to the game and removed a lot map skip spots that nobody ever really used in Versus unless that team just wanted to be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Nobody ever used the extremely bad ones because it was considered unfair to the majority of players.

Not to mention they made CSS weapons spawn all the time in the base game now and added ♥♥♥♥♥♥ melee weapons that are just horrible. Seriously, who came up with the pitchfork?

[SNP]

Could be many things.

Sweaty versus tryhards getting angry about their exploits being patched.

Purity players being angry that the game is no longer within the scope of what the developers intended.

Casual players being angry that bolt-actions were added in a horde shooter (me)

All this on top of the TLS team taking it upon themselves to make all these changes without the necessary amount of community input... doesn't mix well.

Some people have their legitimate criticisms, others get anal and blow everything out of proportion, pinning bugs and glitches on TLS over things that have always existed since the game's release.
Both of these parties get lobbed together in black & white thinking.

Originally posted by Sand Hanitizer:

edit: some toxic versus player started arguing with other players(including myself) and started ww3. The forum ended up getting locked. This is just a repost

Yeah, that guy. I've had some lengthy "discussions" with him as well, then he goes completely silent when I start making too much sense.

[stupid ass mailman]

TLS, the good, the bad, and the ugly

The Good
- New map
- Reskinned weapons, makes them look unique.
- Map fixes

The Bad
- More achievements, pain. :/
- Community gives less care about the update.
- (Probably) the last major update Left 4 Dead 2 will have.

The Ugly
- CSS Weapons starts to spread everywhere
- 2 new melee weapons, The pitchfork sucks. The shovel has no problems (imo)

[sokolov]

TF2 is dying for an update and a game which last major update was 7 years ago (2013) gets it while changing some of the weapon balancing and breaking old mods.

[Zadkiel]

I love how people are still blaming TLS for the CS weapons when it was Valve themselves who told them to add them last minute.

[Zadkiel]

Originally posted by Sokolov:

TF2 is dying for an update and a game which last major update was 7 years ago (2013) gets it while changing some of the weapon balancing and breaking old mods.

TF2 died a long time ago, the bots have taken over

[Xanaguy]

Originally posted by Chaindlayne:

I love how people are still blaming TLS for the CS weapons when it was Valve themselves who told them to add them last minute.

They never told us to add it. It was an engine change that we have no control over. They simply did it themselves.

[Arback]

the are leVels to this plus L update

[PizzaMan]

Cons:
The Last Stand campaign is terrible, disgusting events and final.
Useless melees & CSS weapons.

Pros:
It encourages old modders to make new mods and maps.

[JAiZ]

Originally posted by Sand Hanitizer:

edit: some toxic versus player started arguing with other players(including myself) and started ww3. The forum ended up getting locked. This is just a repost

Welcome to the steam forums, drinks are to the left by the pinned threads.

Also, just a heads-up, but re-posting locked threads is against the Discussion Guidelines, so don't be surprised if this thread gets locked before anyone has a chance to derail it.

Originally posted by yesskillch:

All this on top of the TLS team taking it upon themselves to make all these changes without the necessary amount of community input...

Everyone who worked on specific changes and improvements knew what their respective part of the community wanted; We had survival veterans fixing and changing things in survival mode that the survival community has been asking for since 2013, Versus veterans with thousands of hours of experience and even competitive Versus players were taking care of any Versus-related changes, reknown modders who use their skills professionally giving their input for anything workshop-related and covering the technical side of everything, and we even had speedrunners - who break the game for fun - on the QA team to find, reliably track, and understand bugs as efficiently as possible.
Every portion of the community was as represented as possible, and the team is pretty open to receiving feedback and suggestions, with the github[github.com] being available to everyone for reporting issues and sharing fixes, and even having a workshop post for anyone to try out and see planned changes from the github directly in-game.

Originally posted by Sand Hanitizer:

some spread slander about JAIZ

Funny thing about that; the few people hating on me seem hellbent on portraying me as the team lead who did all the work by himself, when in reality I was only in charge of the survival map development, then QA in general (testing and cataloging issues), then later some PR (trailers and interviews), for everything else I was either just assisting (level design) or only giving input. I didn't even touch anything Versus related, let alone would I know how to code talker files or VScripts, yet apparently I'm still to blame for those things.
This isn't secret information either, everyone's contributions are publicly credited, but it does show when someone doesn't actually know what they're talking about; The old thread had the same problem, with claims of changes the update supposedly made, just to list things that have been around since the game's release.

Even back in 2020 some people were making up claims like "survivors now move slower" or "weapon damage was nerfed" or "quick-climbing ladders was patched out" just for the sake of having something to complain about.
This isn't new behaviour either, the same things you see being said about TLS were also said for every update that got released in the past. The Passing DLC was "underwhelming and boring", The Sacrifice DLC was "unecessary and should've been a workshop upload instead", even The EMS update was called pointless and "a waste of space that broke the game".

Plenty of people have already given really useful feedback, suggestions, and ideas, and even continue doing so 2 years later, whether by talking directly to team members, sharing ideas on social hubs, or raising issues and sharing fixes directly on the github - but the difference between them and the people posting hate, is that the former genuinely cares about the game and is making a difference, whereas the latter is just wasting everyone's time.

[◢◤Tinsellieye◢◤]

Originally posted by JAiZ:

Originally posted by Sand Hanitizer:

edit: some toxic versus player started arguing with other players(including myself) and started ww3. The forum ended up getting locked. This is just a repost

Welcome to the steam forums, drinks are to the left by the pinned threads.

Also, just a heads-up, but re-posting locked threads is against the Discussion Guidelines, so don't be surprised if this thread gets locked before anyone has a chance to derail it.

Originally posted by yesskillch:

All this on top of the TLS team taking it upon themselves to make all these changes without the necessary amount of community input...

Everyone who worked on specific changes and improvements knew what their respective part of the community wanted; We had survival veterans fixing and changing things in survival mode that the survival community has been asking for since 2013, Versus veterans with thousands of hours of experience and even competitive Versus players were taking care of any Versus-related changes, reknown modders who use their skills professionally giving their input for anything workshop-related and covering the technical side of everything, and we even had speedrunners - who break the game for fun - on the QA team to find, reliably track, and understand bugs as efficiently as possible.
Every portion of the community was as represented as possible, and the team is pretty open to receiving feedback and suggestions, with the github[github.com] being available to everyone for reporting issues and sharing fixes, and even having a workshop post for anyone to try out and see planned changes from the github directly in-game.

Originally posted by Sand Hanitizer:

some spread slander about JAIZ

Funny thing about that; the few people hating on me seem hellbent on portraying me as the team lead who did all the work by himself, when in reality I was only in charge of the survival map development, then QA in general (testing and cataloging issues), then later some PR (trailers and interviews), for everything else I was either just assisting (level design) or only giving input. I didn't even touch anything Versus related, let alone would I know how to code talker files or VScripts, yet apparently I'm still to blame for those things.
This isn't secret information either, everyone's contributions are publicly credited, but it does show when someone doesn't actually know what they're talking about; The old thread had the same problem, with claims of changes the update supposedly made, just to list things that have been around since the game's release.

Even back in 2020 some people were making up claims like "survivors now move slower" or "weapon damage was nerfed" or "quick-climbing ladders was patched out" just for the sake of having something to complain about.
This isn't new behaviour either, the same things you see being said about TLS were also said for every update that got released in the past. The Passing DLC was "underwhelming and boring", The Sacrifice DLC was "unecessary and should've been a workshop upload instead", even The EMS update was called pointless and "a waste of space that broke the game".

Plenty of people have already given really useful feedback, suggestions, and ideas, and even continue doing so 2 years later, whether by talking directly to team members, sharing ideas on social hubs, or raising issues and sharing fixes directly on the github - but the difference between them and the people posting hate, is that the former genuinely cares about the game and is making a difference, whereas the latter is just wasting everyone's time.

people will always find a reason to complain about something that could very well not exist just for the sake of it as humans this is still something that we cant fix

[coNstantin]

because a handful of amateur modders thought it's a good idea to enforce their vision of what the game should look like and they failed

[Sharpie The Dragon]

Originally posted by coNstantin:

because a handful of amateur modders thought it's a good idea to enforce their vision of what the game should look like and they failed

I mean, did they? It's been fairly run of the mill if you ask me...

Like exploits being patched out in Versus... stuff like this[i.redd.it] or that[external-preview.redd.it] Versus was unplayable

The Last Stand map is pretty lackluster, but it's whatever... not like I have to play it. Survival maps/achievements are just added fluff and okay.

Big one was thousands of mods being incompatible, which is the biggest problem since most modders haven't updated.

The game is better than what it was pre-TLS, could still do with improvements but the amount of bugs fixed by them has been invaluable

[◢◤Tinsellieye◢◤]

Originally posted by Sharples:

Originally posted by coNstantin:

because a handful of amateur modders thought it's a good idea to enforce their vision of what the game should look like and they failed

I mean, did they? It's been fairly run of the mill if you ask me...

Like exploits being patched out in Versus... stuff like this[i.redd.it] or that[external-preview.redd.it] Versus was unplayable

The Last Stand map is pretty lackluster, but it's whatever... not like I have to play it. Survival maps/achievements are just added fluff and okay.

Big one was thousands of mods being incompatible, which is the biggest problem since most modders haven't updated.

The game is better than what it was pre-TLS, could still do with improvements but the amount of bugs fixed by them has been invaluable

let's also not forget when t1 shotgun only had 56 ammo at the time, most of time i would have run out of ammo before i reached the saferoom

[JAiZ]

Originally posted by coNstantin:

because a handful of amateur modders thought it's a good idea to enforce their vision of what the game should look like and they failed

Originally posted by JAiZ:

reknown modders who use their skills professionally

You heard it here folks, apparently professional animators and modelers who are full-time employed and do their craft for a living are just amateurs.