Sidi Bouzid 10th Pz Div units (topic renamed)

[archibaldthe1]

So this started from NORTHWEST AFRICA - SEIZING THE INITIATIVE IN THE WEST again. The author mentioned that in CC C counterattack they encountered French 47mm AT guns alongside 88mm FLAKs. No mention of unit of course...

Long story short, I didn't find anything about that yet, but reading (well, looking would be more accurate as I don't know any German) through archives of 10th Pz Division, I noticed they keep insisting on listing 7.62cm guns of 90ATBn as self-propelled:

https://i.imgur.com/YwByoTT.jpg (this is for OLIVENERNTE which didn't happen, but from around Jan 1943)

https://i.imgur.com/Zb2JeDX.jpg (and this is the OOB from the beginning of the year if I understood it correctly). Although I don't know what in the hell does a half-filled self-propelled symbol mean (and why would self-propelled guns need separate MG's - perhaps for the crew? But that’s not “heavy MG”)

In the operation we have 9 guns (so the number matches), all towed. So Is this the error in the document and it's supposed to be mechanized, not self-propelled or were they actually Marders?

[archibaldthe1]

If you were to trust this http://www.yeide.net/Public/10thPanzerDivisionOOB.pdf, it lists a particular model for 7.62’s: 1. Komp. (9 Geschützen 7.62 cm auf Fahrgestell P 38 (t)

[archibaldthe1]

Another observation from the same documents is that Coy 3 of 90AT is listed as equipped with Pak-40’s (and it’s PAK-38 in the game)
Given my lack knowledge it may that I am misinterpreting this OOB as “ideal” as opposed to “actual”, but I don’t think so - it lists captured equipment.

[archibaldthe1]

OK, even more very interesting observations.
According to this list of BG's (lang was in reserve, so his group is not in the game):
https://i.imgur.com/dGvefyL.jpg

1. the stuG battery from 90AR was part of Reimann's group (well, at least on paper - either the archives do not have battle reports or I can't find them...)
2. Battery 12 of 4Bn/90AR (also in Reimann's group) is listed in the OOB as 12x2cm flak 38's. The funny thing is that American reports mention taking fire from Tigers and 88mm (but they weren't sure about the cannons). In game we have 88mm (so either battery 10 or 11?)
3. Now, this is most likely famous German mix-ups, but in Gerhardt's group, they are listing 3./90AT, which is listed in earlier order (for a different operation) as a self-propelled 2cm Flak (both dual and quad)! https://i.imgur.com/NDYLqsA.jpg
It is suspicious that it's 3 (Fla) in one case and just 3 in the other.. So maybe it's the PAK-40's after all. But the OOB does have the flak battery as part of 90AT (and it’s listed third from the right).
4. Armored Eng coy is 3, not 1, but that just cosmetic...
5. And I am not sure I am interpreting this correctly, but the only detachment from 90AR was 10cm battery (well + Flak in reserve, which we don't get), but in game there are two spotters for 4x10cm on 10th PzD level.

Apologize in advance if this was all known and disproved - I just got really excited about the high-quality scans that are now available

And one more thing, I did find when 10th PzD got their Marders (they show up in October manifest), but it is weird that for the purpose of Fruhlingswind 1./90AT is not spelled out as self-propelled. I now think that the guy typing the order was lazy (this and 3./90AT both are "shorhanded")

[archibaldthe1]

Hm, for engineers in particular, now that I'm looking at what's in the game - we have one Coy + one Platoon (all armored), whereas according to the orders, it's one platoon with Reimann, and the rest of 3rd Coy with Gerhardt (any platoons from Coys 1 and 2 are motorized, not armored, i.e. no half-trucks).

About heavy Coy of Tigers: this document with marching orders mentions something to the effect of moving Tigers ONLY (i.e. without PZ III's). Someone who actually knows German may get a better idea: https://i.imgur.com/NMDRfYp.jpg

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

Hm, for engineers in particular, now that I'm looking at what's in the game - we have one Coy + one Platoon (all armored), whereas according to the orders, it's one platoon with Reimann, and the rest of 3rd Coy with Gerhardt (any platoons from Coys 1 and 2 are motorized, not armored, i.e. no half-trucks).

About heavy Coy of Tigers: this document with marching orders mentions something to the effect of moving Tigers ONLY (i.e. without PZ III's). Someone who actually knows German may get a better idea: https://i.imgur.com/NMDRfYp.jpg

Yes, it is written there, that the Tigers are supposed to go without Pz. III.

[archibaldthe1]

Thank you! I was confused by the capitalization/prevalence of periods (and most of all by not knowing any German :)

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

Thank you! I was confused by the capitalization/prevalence of periods (and most of all by not knowing any German :)

No problem, the writing is a bit strange in parts. I have no clear idea, what "Räderteile" is supposed to mean in this context. Maybe armored cars... or cars/trucks. Nobody I know has ever used such a word like that.

And of course, it is not clear if anything happened like it is written there.

[Old School Internet Warlord]

To me it sounds like towed guns are meant by Räderteile. But it could be basically anything using wheels.

[archibaldthe1]

Originally posted by Zephyr:

...
And of course, it is not clear if anything happened like it is written there.

The activity descriptions they have in the related documents are very generic. No references to particular units, it’s stuff like “Tank column moved towards X at time Y, encountered the enemy tanks”. And then on US side, well - it’s hard to identify what you are dealing with in the heat of battle.

On German Federal archives site they mention that it’s very rare for units below divisions to have any documentation preserved, so this may be the best info we get.

Makes you appreciate the work Graviteam puts in!

[archibaldthe1]

In that same document, when they list the orders for AR90, they use acronyms “V.B.” and “A.V.Ko”. I understood that it referred to detached units, but did you encounter these before? I am curious what they stand for... <something> batterie and <something something> Kompanie

[Old School Internet Warlord]

V.B. could be an arty spotter. "Vorgeschobener Beobachter" = forward observer.

[archibaldthe1]

So after all this time (and I looked at 21st PzD archives + some of 5th PzA archives), the original question of where in the world did Americans see 47mm guns was not answered. There is a mystery though - marching orders for 21st PzD include a reference to 39 AT Bn. But the order of battle as close to Sidi Bou Zid attack as early Feb do not list 39 AT Bn. Moreover, it’s not there in any of 5PzA formations.
21th PzD was pretty dynamic at the time though - the 104 PgR for example went from 3 to 4 battalions, and the tank regiment got a second battalion too. So it’s possible, 39 AT was restored sometime in the 10-days period...

Oh, one thing that’s very cool - 5 PzA documents include OOB and orders for Italians (Suprega division for example).

[andrey12345 v2.0]

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

I noticed they keep insisting on listing 7.62cm guns of 90ATBn as self-propelled

Yes, they had a number of self-propelled 7.62 cm AT guns.

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

and why would self-propelled guns need separate MG's - perhaps for the crew? But that’s not “heavy MG”)

In packing, it goes for SPGs for self-defense.

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

In the operation we have 9 guns (so the number matches), all towed. So Is this the error in the document and it's supposed to be mechanized

There is no such unit in the game that is needed here and probably never will be.

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

or were they actually Marders?

No they are not Marders but they are self-propelled 7.62 cm AT guns.

[archibaldthe1]

Originally posted by andrey12345 v2.0:

...

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

In the operation we have 9 guns (so the number matches), all towed. So Is this the error in the document and it's supposed to be mechanized

There is no such unit in the game that is needed here and probably never will be.
...

That’s fair - you don’t have unlimited unit modeling capabilities. What was the exact model if you don’t mind sharing?

Thanks for the reply.

[andrey12345 v2.0]

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

Originally posted by andrey12345 v2.0:

...

There is no such unit in the game that is needed here and probably never will be.
...

That’s fair - you don’t have unlimited unit modeling capabilities. What was the exact model if you don’t mind sharing?

Thanks for the reply.

Soviet F-22 cannon modernized by the Germans, which was placed on the chassis of a slightly converted M2 artillery tractor (perhaps the chassis has changed over time). Something like this as long as I remember. But the exact details are unclear, since in fact this custom unit was only in this division.