Driller main here - Let's talk... Corrosive Sludge Pump.

[Salty Sis' 4U]

Overall, as much as I love the goo gun, I really think it needs some buffs to get it a bit closer to its cousins in terms of both CC and damage output.

Now, the Sludge Pump is indeed a sort of middle-of-the-road gun, between the Flamethrower and Cryocannon... But it doesn't really compare, in terms of impact or even utility.

Cryocannon's freeze can instagib enemies and also makes them supremely vulnerable, as it applies a damage multiplier and can cause elemental shock when the target is hit with anything moderately spicy. Its ability to stop enemies in their tracks and instakill ANY flying target 100% of the time makes it a monster in the mid-to-CQC ranges.

The Flamethrower is a god of crowd-clearing in its own right, too. With lingering trails that melt targets, decent ammo economy and the ability to trade range for moar ammo cap+reserve ammo... It's a weapon that can melt through entire crowds, causing targets killed directly to explode and cause more CC damage still... And come out of the endless waves with loads to spare.
It's by far the best in terms of flat out efficiency, even without the total stoppage of cryofreezing or the damage multiplier.
Burning status also lasts a good long while and does decent damage as it burns away.

Meanwhile...
Goo does some DoT, but is at its best when it has applied a direct-hit status AND is doing damage via puddle. With only one or the other, this goo is far less effective.
Worse, its three last mods do not all apply to both direct-status application and puddle-based.

It can't totally stop foes, nor cause them to burst, nor even penetrate to hit multiple targets per shot. Per shot, it has mediocre efficiency and is at its best when charged...
And said charged shots can take a lil bit to ready.

It can be lit on fire, but this requires an EPC modded to burn and some aim as it won't spread from puddle to puddle with ease or anything.
Worse, if you hit an ally with your shot or the fragments, the shot/fragment is wasted.
It doesn't puddle, it doesn't pass through allies, it just vanishes.
This sucks hard for when you're trying to spread it on the ground.

Now, as for suggestions...
I'd suggest more fragments per charged shot across the board, overclocks and base gun alike... And larger ammo reserve overall to offset the inefficiency of singular shots when compared to the efficiency of said charged shots, which shouldn't be an issue given the lengthy charge time of charged shots and the offset for said charge time coming at the cost of charged shot efficiency due to these mods being in the same horizontal slots.

Stacking DoT when multiple fragments hit a single target would also be a good draw, even if said stacking has some kind of diminishing returns.

Also, mechanical units being unaffected by Ingredient X is kinda BS and I think everyone can agree it sucks. Like, they ONLY HAVE HP? They're MACHINES!
Ingredient X should apply a damage multiplier to mechanical units it's stuck to, like wot freezing does to most units.

It makes a lot more sense, frankly, and would make fighting mechanical units whilst using the Ingredient X mod on your goo less of a flat out nerf to the gun.

[phenir]

I would just like charge shot fragments to pierce so half the coverage from a shot doesn't get instantly removed. Also enemies that die to the gun or while covered in sludge should leave behind a puddle. Looking at you swarmer.
About fire spreading, it does spread from puddle to puddle. Even burning enemies can light puddles on fire.

[R.-]

Originally posted by phenir:

I would just like charge shot fragments to pierce so half the coverage from a shot doesn't get instantly removed. Also enemies that die to the gun or while covered in sludge should leave behind a puddle. Looking at you swarmer.
About fire spreading, it does spread from puddle to puddle. Even burning enemies can light puddles on fire.

I like this better.

Penalising direct hits by removing the fragments' ability to do puddle CC and DoT... It makes absolutely no sense at all. The bugs don't simply eat up the goo and feel sick. That's not how it works.

[Vault Traveler]

Molten enemies should spawn a puddle. Would give the gun another layer.

[Triplescrew]

Personally, i find it OK. Its good for long range bombardment and burst damage.

Blob disappearing annoyed me at first....but its not really that bad once you know how it works.

[Salty Sis' 4U]

https://youtu.be/lgjU6KthwEI
For those that think it's totally fine, please watch this vid' comparison of the main guns and even the EPC.

And note that while the cryocannon is mid-tier in this vid', the factor not listed here is that again, it grants frozen enemies an incoming damage multiplier... And that said enemies are totally immobilized AND unable to attack.

And in this video, the sludge pump is set up with CC perks.
Yes. The sludge pump is in need of some buffs.

[Salty Sis' 4U]

Originally posted by R.-:

Originally posted by phenir:

I would just like charge shot fragments to pierce so half the coverage from a shot doesn't get instantly removed. Also enemies that die to the gun or while covered in sludge should leave behind a puddle. Looking at you swarmer.
About fire spreading, it does spread from puddle to puddle. Even burning enemies can light puddles on fire.

I like this better.

Penalising direct hits by removing the fragments' ability to do puddle CC and DoT... It makes absolutely no sense at all. The bugs don't simply eat up the goo and feel sick. That's not how it works.

Yup.
It really sucks, especially since neither the flamethrower nor the cryocannon are hindered in this manner. Flamethrower does best when you hit both the bug AND the floor, as it deal direct hit damage, direct-proc and damage+proc from the floor's fire trail.

The sludge pump is likewise at its best when dealing damage+proc via puddle and a direct-hit DoT... But indeed, it doesn't form a puddle if you hit an enemy; the fragment pops and procs the DoT. Big suck.

[Salty Sis' 4U]

Originally posted by phenir:

I would just like charge shot fragments to pierce so half the coverage from a shot doesn't get instantly removed. Also enemies that die to the gun or while covered in sludge should leave behind a puddle. Looking at you swarmer.
About fire spreading, it does spread from puddle to puddle. Even burning enemies can light puddles on fire.

I'm 100% with this. It's one of a few factors that is a direct nerf to the sludge pump's most effective use, as it needs both puddle and direct DoT to reach its full potential and is otherwise suffering a drop in potency of both its DoT and slow effect.

[Derpykat5]

Originally posted by Salty Sis' 4U:

https://youtu.be/lgjU6KthwEI
For those that think it's totally fine, please watch this vid' comparison of the main guns and even the EPC.

And note that while the cryocannon is mid-tier in this vid', the factor not listed here is that again, it grants frozen enemies an incoming damage multiplier... And that said enemies are totally immobilized AND unable to attack.

And in this video, the sludge pump is set up with CC perks.
Yes. The sludge pump is in need of some buffs.

Have you considered that the sludge pump fills a similar support role as the cryocannon, and thus needs similar consideration?

[Salty Sis' 4U]

Originally posted by derpykat5:

Originally posted by Salty Sis' 4U:

https://youtu.be/lgjU6KthwEI
For those that think it's totally fine, please watch this vid' comparison of the main guns and even the EPC.

And note that while the cryocannon is mid-tier in this vid', the factor not listed here is that again, it grants frozen enemies an incoming damage multiplier... And that said enemies are totally immobilized AND unable to attack.

And in this video, the sludge pump is set up with CC perks.
Yes. The sludge pump is in need of some buffs.

Have you considered that the sludge pump fills a similar support role as the cryocannon, and thus needs similar consideration?

Have you considered that:
1. Slowing an enemy's WALK SPEED is not the same as totally halting their movement AND preventing them from engaging in any form of attack?
2. Cryocannon's freeze status multiplies damage taken from all sources, with a heat-shock mechanic to boot? Sludge doesn't have such a benefit.

So no, I don't think they deserve similar consideration.
Because the slow is much closer to that of the flamethrower, as it doesn't prevent the enemy leaping, slashing, biting, spitting or the like such as the cryocannon does.

The only advantage sludge has in this context is against exploder-type enemies, as it can dissolve them... Unless they already started the pulsating "I'm gonna explode!" animation, after which they cannot be melted.
And fun fact? The cryocannon's freeze can also prevent exploders from esplodin'.

The sludge cannon doesn't really accel at all when compared to the flamethrower... Let alone the monstrous potential of the cryocannon.
And the only reason the cryocannon isn't flat out better than the flamethrower is due to ammo efficiency, in which the flamethrower is king.

The sludge cannon is inefficient due to the mechanics of its functions, its need for both direct-hit and puddle-based procs/damage and more.

[Derpykat5]

Originally posted by Salty Sis' 4U:

Originally posted by derpykat5:

Have you considered that the sludge pump fills a similar support role as the cryocannon, and thus needs similar consideration?

Have you considered that:
1. Slowing an enemy's WALK SPEED is not the same as totally halting their movement AND preventing them from engaging in any form of attack?
2. Cryocannon's freeze status multiplies damage taken from all sources, with a heat-shock mechanic to boot? Sludge doesn't have such a benefit.

So no, I don't think they deserve similar consideration.
Because the slow is much closer to that of the flamethrower, as it doesn't prevent the enemy leaping, slashing, biting, spitting or the like such as the cryocannon does.

This is something I already mentioned above.

Maybe the cryocannon is overpowered (and lets face it, complete immobilization and armor bypassing is pretty dang powerful).

[Salty Sis' 4U]

Originally posted by derpykat5:

Originally posted by Salty Sis' 4U:

Have you considered that:
1. Slowing an enemy's WALK SPEED is not the same as totally halting their movement AND preventing them from engaging in any form of attack?
2. Cryocannon's freeze status multiplies damage taken from all sources, with a heat-shock mechanic to boot? Sludge doesn't have such a benefit.

So no, I don't think they deserve similar consideration.
Because the slow is much closer to that of the flamethrower, as it doesn't prevent the enemy leaping, slashing, biting, spitting or the like such as the cryocannon does.

This is something I already mentioned above.

Maybe the cryocannon is overpowered (and lets face it, complete immobilization and armor bypassing is pretty dang powerful).

The cryocannon is strong, but it lags behind the flamethrower in terms of ammo efficiency.
That's pretty well their primary balancing factor.

The sludge pump however is just kinda crappy, comparing to both of them.

[Derpykat5]

Originally posted by Salty Sis' 4U:

Originally posted by derpykat5:

Maybe the cryocannon is overpowered (and lets face it, complete immobilization and armor bypassing is pretty dang powerful).

The cryocannon is strong, but it lags behind the flamethrower in terms of ammo efficiency.
That's pretty well their primary balancing factor.

The sludge pump however is just kinda crappy, comparing to both of them.

Lags behind? In what world? All three weapons have more than enough ammo to last.

[Salty Sis' 4U]

Originally posted by derpykat5:

Originally posted by Salty Sis' 4U:

The cryocannon is strong, but it lags behind the flamethrower in terms of ammo efficiency.
That's pretty well their primary balancing factor.

The sludge pump however is just kinda crappy, comparing to both of them.

Lags behind? In what world? All three weapons have more than enough ammo to last.

I don't think you understand the concept of "ammo efficiency"... Please watch the video I posted to get the gist of it.

You can try to stretch the use of your weapon out some, but inevitably you will have to shoot some to actually kill the bugs.
The flamethrower's direct killing potential is higher than that of the cryocannon in a vacuum and the lingering trails can do great against crowds, so it's easier to conserve ammo with.

The cryocannon requires a direct spray to do what it must and benefits primarily from instagib on-freeze, instakill of flying units and from the damage multiplier on frozen foes allowing your team to clear them for you and thus save you some ammo.
Alternatively, you can use melee on said frozen foes.
So yes, you can make the cryocannon consume less ammo flat out, but it's locked to some degree in how efficient it is at its core by nature of how it functions.


The sludge cannon however suffers in the efficiency of its single shots due to its ammo capacity being substantially low with no real way to increase it without hard-nerfing its AoE CC capabilities... And its charged shots, whilst more efficient, have a charge time that can be a bit risky to manage in CQC.
Worse, the sludge doesn't really deal decent DPS unless, again, you proc both a direct-hit DoT and have a puddle under the target.

If you weren't aware, a sludge fragment that hits an enemy unit pops and cannot make a puddle. A fragment that hits terrain forms a puddle and cannot proc the typical DoT on enemy units.

This is a problem because:
1. It means the optimal DPS of the sludge pump is sub-par unless you manage both direct-hit and puddles on an enemy unit...
2. The final tier of perks for the sludge pump don't apply in every case. Some only apply to direct-hit procs, so an enemy walking through a sludge puddle won't be affected by the special effects.
3. You have to intentionally waste shots on the terrain to create a DoT zone in addition.

Meanwhile, the flamethrower penetrates the enemy and hits terrain as you spray, making it that much more efficient both for crowds AND single-target DPS...
And the cryocannon's spray is at 100% efficiency regardless of whether you hit terrain in addition to the enemy; you just try to hit as many foes with it at once as possible... Or hit priority targets to stop them dead in their tracks.

And you know what both the cryocannon and the flamethrower have that the sludge pump doesn't?
An AoE aura perk in the final perk slot.

And said AoE is key to making it insanely easy to proc their statuses on larger units that would normally be troublesome.
The sludge pump has no such thing.

It has a DPS-boosting perk which was nerfed just after release...
It has an armor-melting perk which only applies to direct-hit procs, not puddles...
And it has a slowing perk, which is about the most useful thing it has right now barring special cases such as super-speedy elite units that are hardly hindered by it.

[Derpykat5]

Why are you considering these weapons in a vacuum? This is a co-op game, that's not the most common environment.

[Salty Sis' 4U]

Originally posted by derpykat5:

Why are you considering these weapons in a vacuum? This is a co-op game, that's not the most common environment.

Because sometimes, your team isn't there right next to you finishing the enemy off.
And furthermore, if your weapon can't finish off the enemy you are in essence wasting the ammo of an ally.
Crowd control weapons on the Driller work BEST solo, because you can lead the enemy units through the entirety of your blasts and trails, as well as get them grouped up much more nicely.

So not only does the sludge pump fail in solo in spite of this, comparing to its other options, you are legit forcing your allies to waste more ammo when not playing solo.

Please use a bit of cross-referencing logic, here... A weapon that fails on its own fails the team unless it provides immense value via side-effects, which the sludge pump does NOT.
A weapon that is less effective outside of a team would be the cryocannon, if only because you have less DPS whilst your foes are frozen due to having fewer guns.

So whilst the cryocannon does a fantastic job and does ever better with a team and the flamethrower is just flat out stupid-efficient, the sludge cannon remains a mediocre option with no real draw other than style and feel.

Worse, it weakens the ammo conservation ability of your team.
I don't know how many more times I can repeat and clarify these flaws, please just read the first few posts all the way through... Or heck, read the topic description itself.