More Traversal/Utility tools?

[Sally the Wendigo]

Don't get me wrong, I love zipping around with the Hook, and blowing up teammates with C4, but would be interesting to see more ways to do that.

[Derpykat5]

The problem is that teams need to know what each class is capable of, and alternate tools prevent that.

[Bookslayer10]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Derpykat5:

The problem is that teams need to know what each class is capable of, and alternate tools prevent that.

Do you think teams should expect Scouts to take weapons that can deal with HVT's and fill that role on the team? If so, then wouldn't overclocks like Overtuned Particle Accelerator work against that?

[Chibbity]

Weapons are a different story, since they all generally kill stuff.

Expecting a Gunner to have a Shield or an Engi to have plats is a bit more central to how the game flows.

[Bookslayer10]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Chibbity:

Weapons are a different story, since they all generally kill stuff.

Expecting a Gunner to have a Shield or an Engi to have plats is a bit more central to how the game flows.

I know from experience that missing one class's mobility/utility tools in a 3 player lobby isn't that bad. At most it's frustrating, but it's still manageable. Like, not having a Gunner with a shield isn't that big of a deal, because there are no situations where a shield would be required. Same with grappling hooks, flare guns, drills, etc. If it isn't the worst to be completely missing a few tools, then don't you think people would be fine if someone brings a close parallel to the tool?

Consider missing the HVT focus of a Scout or the swarm clear of a Driller because they took overclocks that altered weapon function; compare that to not having platforms because the Engi took a tool with a slightly different design. Are those two things really that different?

[Chibbity]

We both know the devs have said no dozens of times, it's a moot point to discuss really; but yes I agree with their stance.

[AyyDimitri]

The whole, lets add more equipments...
Has to also be combined with, how does it fill the same general role, in an alternate way without superseding the other, or drastically falling short.

And its just a tall order to fill.
Not impossible, but it's significant task to get right depending on the task.

Its better to contribute some narrow focused funny creative concept of some kind to serve entertaining hypothetical challenger to the current equips, because the scope of +1 to all traversal tools is a big hole to dive into.

That said,
I am pretty sure more reactive/passive movement extensions to player ability will come in the form of equipment crates, like jetty boots.

[Bookslayer10]

Diposting pertama kali oleh AyyDimitri:

The whole, lets add more equipments...
Has to also be combined with, how does it fill the same general role, in an alternate way without superseding the other, or drastically falling short.

And its just a tall order to fill.
Not impossible, but it's significant task to get right depending on the task.

Yeah, exactly! It's hard, but not impossible.

Maybe the devs have already playtested new traversal tools, but it's always fun to think of new ideas.

Diposting pertama kali oleh AyyDimitri:

Its better to contribute some narrow focused funny creative concept of some kind to serve entertaining hypothetical challenger to the current equips, because the scope of +1 to all traversal tools is a big hole to dive into.

My ideas for traversal tools are these:

Gunner would get deployable jump pads, which slowly fling people around

Engineer would get a platform hose, whose terrain bugs could still dig through

Driller would get laser drills like fuel canisters but they can ♥♥♥♥ up anything

Scout would get a portal gun where you hold down the button to teleport to your cursor

Diposting pertama kali oleh AyyDimitri:

That said,
I am pretty sure more reactive/passive movement extensions to player ability will come in the form of equipment crates, like jetty boots.

I'm hoping for exoskeleton frames personally. Increased movement speed and jump height, increased pickax swing speed and distance, but also a bigger player model. Maybe Driller tunnels wouldn't fit them, now that would be an interesting downside! Annoying, probably terrible, but also interesting!

[FDR'sThinkTank]

I thought a bit about it and if expectations are what people have, you can make traversal tools that basically fill the role of the existing tool but have different playstyle without leaving teammates confused or let down.

The Scout - The key with these is that they don't make Jetty Boots totally useless. After all, the team really doesn't care HOW the scout does what he does... just that he gets it done.

Wingsuit with timer charged super-leap. Can't use primary or secondary while flying, but can use pick axe for a drop strike attack. Can use support without issue. (Obviously, Jetty Boots can make this thing hell on wheels... but that's why the Super-Leap function of the Wingsuit would have a LONG recharge time. Without Jetty Boots, the Scout will have to climb up to the highest point he can find to get flying again.... annoying to be sure. Reloading at the supply station gives instant recharge on super-leap.

ODM Gear, ala Attack on Titan. Probably needs to be renamed. How does ODS sound? Omni Directional Swingline! Similar to grappling, but scout travels along curved paths and slightly slower. Faster charge time. Can use weapons: Pickaxe, Energy, or Bow all normal... Firearms cause progressive loss of momentum until Scout is falling again. Jetty Boots really help, obviously.

The Engineer

Polarized Glue Gun. Coats surfaces with polarized glue which can allow dwarfs to walk on vertical or ceiling surfaces. Glue slows enemies. Glue wears out when moved on until it fades away. Can stand on glue and it won't run out from that. Higher ammo than platform gun. Get into and out of a Sticky Situation!

Ommoran Floatstone Projector. Using an processed fragment of Ommoran Heartstone, this can summon rock platforms. There are a maximum number (6-8?) of platforms this can summon, when it exceeds that, the oldest platform crumbles. This has infinite ammo, but has a charge time after placing 3 platforms. Reloading instantly recharges Projector. Platforms are hardened and difficult for enemies to destroy.

The Gunner

Spelunking Line Rigger. Similar to the Zipline, Except this launches a line along a Vertical Axis with a limited window of Horizontal deployment. Dwarfs travelling upward are sped up by the presence of counterweight (Dwarfs travelling downward). The more dwarfs travelling up, the more this bonus is divided, the more travelling down, the more it is multiplied. (This allows the scout to play counterweight and speed up the teams ascent when necessary.) This unit has similar function to the Zipline, but doesn't completely overlap. It may be more useful than the Zipline for getting to hard to reach minerals, for instance, since the travel distance will generally be shorter. It's not as good for combat or fast travel downward. Same Ammo as Zipline. Obviously, this rig really can take advantage of anything that digs a hole through the ceiling. Finally, a way to turn those pitfalls into elevator access.

Tractor Beam Array. Deploys Array at location and at aimed location. Two way travel between both points is possible- The array is faster than going up a Zipline, but slower than speeding down. Each Array deployed has a limited number of uses (8-12?) but will complete the last trip fully. Array dims when no more trips available. Arrays don't have a axis limitation. This means the team can use up the arrays and the gunner will need to deploy more, but gives room for a higher ammo count. Beam me up, Shooty!

The Driller

Laser Jackhammer. The lightsaber of Digging, this allows the Driller to rapidly melt terrain away, digging similar to the Reinforced Power Drills. Unlike the drills, the terrain around where the Laser Jackhammer has dug becomes hardened and requires more strikes of the pickaxe to dig through. The Laser Jackhammer has improved range over the Reinforced Power Drills, but is prone to overheating more quickly. May the Force be with you, young Diggawan.

Bio-Engineered Claws. Trollish Living Technology. Allows the Driller to dig through dirt like the Reinforced Power Drills, but does so with less Dig per Second, slowing it down. The Claws will take much longer to overheat. The claws can also give the Driller the ability to climb vertical walls. Pretend you are a Mutant in combat! *Cues theme music*

[BaronVonNapking]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Chibbity:

Weapons are a different story, since they all generally kill stuff.

Expecting a Gunner to have a Shield or an Engi to have plats is a bit more central to how the game flows.

More turret varients please...

AP cannon and sniper turrets would finally make the longer range and commandable turret upgrade worth the micromanagement.

Actually now I'm thinking about I should give that upgrade another chance... less damage but I can make them stop shooting the oppressor and start gunning the menace.

[AyyDimitri]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Supply Lines:

-Snip

The Scout
Wingsuit with timer charged super-leap.
I'd just make it a slow fall when held, hold shift to thruster boost yourself in the direction facing, with power reduction when near empty.
Having a super vert, slow decline does not sound all that flexible.
Change the vertical to an any direction travelled and we have aerospace - drifting, albeit at shorter lengths and intervals then the hook with more time to travel further, but no lethal fall window...

Omni Directional Swingline
I swear I have seen a swinging version of the grapple hook, its just not as reactive and there may be some quirks with line tethers and ropes that may arise that I wager is why its not used.
Might show up in R.C...

The Engineer

Polarized Glue Gun.
When it comes to wall walking consider this.
These walls are not flat, low poly, angular, if the standing angle of the terrain determines the looking pitch, moving over some of the unintended angles could prove to be pretty jarring visually as well as humanoid bodies probably not looking right while doing this.
This is why most of the magnet boot challenge is ratchet and clank are often smooth transitions around hard angles, the hard angles while wall climbing 1st person in Alien vs Predator were enough to mess with some folks vertigo.

While I want a goo support gun of some kind, I think wall gel is too hard to nail.

---

Although, I have my own fun support tool idea
Goo-up Gun
Using the bomber / septic goo as a less visually impairing "support splatoon flamer" that paints small areas in whatever goo substance you load into it while holding R.
It has short ammo pools, but multiple ones to switch to, and they recharge slowly.
Possessing;
(Shield Recharge Rate and Move Speed),
(Ward & Bounce),
(Enemy Slow and Repellent)
Types of surface spray...
Resulting in a terrain based buff and medic support Gun with no direct healing outside of buffing out of combat heal for the temp hp.
No permanence as the goo dissipates after some time and there is not enough recharge rate to keep vast areas up above 10m consistently active. Bout 1/3 of is ammo pool is regenerated by the time the goo expires....

---

Ommoran Floatstone Projector.
Had a similar concept, and there is a rabbit hole.
Difficulty to destroy is just uneeded, with the only cure being inf ammo, shoot more platforms, its just vidya archaic.
Would be simpler to have an explosive resistance platform substance variant for the platform gun rather then an infinite ammo terrain gun that might pull out from under an allies feet.

---

I toyed around with a hardlight platform generator.
A walkable temp zipline...
Instead of the average hockey puck, its a charge and shoot a light bridge from portal 2.
Staying active for a limited duration for to suit its unlimited recharging ammo.
But quirky safety trigger being, as long as there is an ally shield nearby, they stay active forever but they drain shields slowly while doing so, with the benefit of damaging foes while doing so during this fading state... landing a direct pickaxe on them allows you phase though any of them for a short time to prevent collision jerks.
But man, this has rabbit holes and a whole other vanishing temporary terrain playstyle that may as well be something else altogether...

---

The Gunner

Spelunking Line Rigger.
Not as a hand tool.
But as a kind of elevator on a rig of some kind, yes.

Tractor Beam Array.
Teleporters, ok.
Too many are a pain to wrap ones head around, its a keep it simple logic, don't expect most can untangle wormhole spaghetti.

My ideal Teleporter system in game would be two way wormhole placeable via long distance throw for vertical access (say disc gun) and retrievable and manageable like turrets, but with a limited max distance to function, with more travel time at longer range.
Instead of players being locked into a platform that may conflict with incoming players, they merely active the teleporter beacon and have to hold in the local 5m proximity for them and only them the be cast over, to the other position, allowing for some hold the line for a secure beam feeling, and some time to grab a crystal or something.
Afterwards you get a full shield reset, but the wait time is close enough to a reset anyways.
There be no limit or cooldown after its use, the wait up time of 6s-12s is enough.
But again, rabbit holes...
On gunner, its not about traversal, is about vantage points and sightlines that teleporters do not cover aspects of...
But hey, I want it over the flare gun at least....
A set and forget back door in and out of hell...
I'll take it...

The Driller

Laser Jackhammer.
Faster use / faster overheat time but gets hardened terrain is just drills but painted red with some range.
My current desired drilling tool "gotta have it" is the Sonic Cannon from Shadow Raiders.
The big ♥♥♥♥ gun...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TfF3TUFNE8&ab_channel=DanielGomes
That big iron is not referenced enough for how hard that sonic blizzard sound file slaps.

Bio-Engineered Claws.
Meh, its just drills, with a fire rate adjustment and a quirk that drills already do...
But there is a desire to mole man even harder in this environment...
I wonder if powerclaws could make it into a crate for all players to dig through terrain the same way boots make everyone a scout...

Just some thoughts on the matter....

[Frisky]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Derpykat5:

The problem is that teams need to know what each class is capable of, and alternate tools prevent that.

[FDR'sThinkTank]

A few quick notes:

On the Scout:
Wing Suit, keep in mind, I didn't want to make Jetty Boots totally useless. If you get Jetty Boots, you can stay up indefinitely... and because you are gliding, not falling, you already have constant forward horizontal movement.


On the Engineer:
The Polarized Glue Gun does encounter some of those visual issues you mentioned, but I feel like the fact it has limited ammo and limited lifespan stops the engineer from turning the whole map into a stomach churning Alien-wall-crawl funhouse. So long as the Glue is done in short and limited paths, I think it's able to take that mechanic and use it in the best way possible with the least amount of downsides. At worst, the user of the glue gun might use the glue to bridge very limited climbing gaps without digging, then relegate the use to mostly slowing down problem enemies. It's possible the Glue Gun would instantly down flying enemies it splatters, letting you run up and finish them.

Ommoran Floatstone Projector: Fair enough. It probably does need tweaking. I wanted moving platforms, but I couldn't think about how to implement that OR balance it. It just seems like the perfect opportunity to tie in equipment with lore.

On the Gunner:
When I say tractor beam, I am not talking about Teleportation. This is merely an energy/magnetic pull zipline. You step into the energy stream and get pulled to the array projector in the direction you choose. The idea is that it's basically the zipline tool, but without any angle of deployment requirements. The limitations it has counterbalance it's improved functionality.

On the Driller:
I had a difficult time coming up with different ways to dig that were particularly unique. The idea of hardening terrain appeals to me because sometimes it's too easy to dig pitfalls on Sandblasted... but you could also hypothetically funnel enemy spawn points by "hardening" terrain and preventing them from spawning in select areas. The Claws letting you climb around gives the driller more rapid vertical ascent at times. It's a selfish function, but it could help the driller get to where he his needed more rapidly sometimes.

There is also the support tool upgrades which I didn't really get into. For instance, the Laser Jackhammer, being a "Light Saber" parody, might have the ability to destroy Cryptid projectiles, or even reflect them. Meanwhile, the Bio-Engineered Claws are living technology. They could have a "Wolf Marine Gene" that allows the Driller to heal when dealing damage with them.... or venomous claws that poison enemies.

[AyyDimitri]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Frisky:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Derpykat5:

The problem is that teams need to know what each class is capable of, and alternate tools prevent that.

And...
Does not mean you can't have a discussion about toys.
There is another game with no equipment class restrictions coming and an open development critique along with it.

I wonder why that is....

[FDR'sThinkTank]

Thinking about a "glide suit" Traversal Tool for the Scout, you could have it so he throws out little "anti-Grav" or "mag-Lev" boosters he can jump off. He would either have a recharge like the Gunner Shield or a limited inventory that needed to be restocked. Either way, the Booster allows the scout to get a good jump in where he places the booster, which combos well with his glide suit, which is only active while he is "Holding" the booster device as his primary weapon. This lets the scout switch weapons to drop faster, if gliding is a problem.

The only thing to ask about "Mag-Lev" boosters is if other teammate's can use them... other scouts.. or if it's tuned to only the one user. Obviously, other classes are going to take fall damage if they fall a great distance after a jump... but giving the scout a way to help teammates move around might really foul the balance of the grappling hook.

[FDR'sThinkTank]

I had more ideas for variation of traversal tools, but I will include some ideas for subtle support tool variation as well, since that's part of the main topic. These will be part of themed sets, for fun.

---The Leaf Lovers Luxuries---

Scout:
Potted Korlock Vine - This is essentially a Grappling Gun alternative. It might have a faster recharge, but a slower pull speed. Killing Cryptids might give it a temporary boost as well. Water it with Cryptid Blood and be sure to keep it exposed to the gentle glow of a Crystal at least 7 Hours a Day.

Engineer:
Deluxe Grow Light - Platform Gun Alternative. Raided from an Elven Hydroponics Lab, the boys in R&D were tinkering around with this and found it useful for manipulating plantlife on Hoxxes. Charge it up and fire at any surface to grow soft native plant life for you to jump, land, and climb on. Longer charges will create a bigger spread of plantlife. (Think the wall leaves you can find in Azure Wield. Something like that, or variation for each Biome.) For gods sakes, don't shoot this ray at the Korlock Tyrant Vine!

Gunner:
Cloaking Device - Shield Generator Alternative. Doesn't block enemy projectiles, explosions, other damage or benefit your shield regeneration, but does block enemies ability to detect dwarves in it's cloak range. This unit lasts longer than the Shield Generator.

Driller:
Mega Blaster Pod Seeds - Satchel Charge Alternative. The Driller traded for these with a mysterious and inscrutable merchant from a far off land. He discovered that when he plants them in the soil of Hoxxes, it grows Blaster Pods native to the Biome there. (Explosive Pods normally, Ice for Cold Regions, Radioactive when appropriate, etc.) These create smaller explosions than the Satchel Charge... and can't be remotely detonated... but the Driller CAN plant a bunch in sequence, then shoot one to cause a chain reaction as normal. Mission Control refuses to let the Driller set up a Garden on the station, despite formal complaints issued to corporate.

---Reverse Engineered Rival Tech---

Scout:
Nemesis Tenta-Whip: Alternative for the Grappling Hook. A radical cybernetic tool for the scout that does area damage where the Scout Aims it. A Slower travel rate and reduced range are the trade off for this aggressive support alternative.

Engineer:
Rival Turret: On it's face, this is just an energy weapon alternative to the normal turrets, but it has mods for giving it Sniper abilities or Automated Tentacles for immobilizing cryptids. This turret can also be built on any surface, including walls and ceilings. Proximity to Rival Turret will Recharge it slowly from the Engineers Support Ammo Supply.... so reloading is more automagic, but takes longer.

Gunner:
Force Projector; Shield Generator Alternative. This takes the Force Shield technology and compacts it into a personal Shield Projector. The Gunner can push crowds of enemies away with this, he gets MANY more charges than the Shield Generator... but it's more limited in it's protection by the factor of direction and movement of the force wall.

Driller:
Thumper: Power Drill Alternative. This is a Sonic Drilling device that allows Driller to Charge the weapon, then release a flurry of dig strikes in a moving aura that penetrates walls. The longer he charges, the further the "Sonic Dig Wave" travels, which spreads his digs out more... but he can charge and blast a longer tunnel all once as a result. This also allows him to blast enemy crowds with this Sonic Damage.