LMG Gun Platform Tier 4 Modifiers

[Bongoboy]

The choice here is between the Defender System which adds +5 Damage and a Reduced Scan Angle and the Hawkeye System which only adds +15 Targeting Range.

I not know, I never liked the Defender System. More shot power is not bad, but the reduced scan angle really hurts what the Turret is good for ... which is killing Swarmers and those floating Shockers.

Why not take away that reduced scan angle and then maybe balance the + Damage around not having a reduced scan angle? Maybe now they add +2 or +3 to Shot Damage instead?

I think Modifiers should not be handled like Yellow Overclocks, that have something positive and something negative to balance them out. That's fine for Overclocks but for Modifiers?

I would be curious as to how many people actually prefer Defender System over the Hawkeye System ... and why.

[Waffe]

I quite like locking my turrets to help focus their fire in specific areas. So they don't waste their ammo attacking the front of bugs but their backside.
Defender for me is so strong I'll still use it even if it only provided 1 extra damage. As the range has no real advantage for my turret usage.

To be fair I am a em discharge fan, so turret kills in general are mostly a bonus.

[vindicar]

Originally posted by Lithariel:

Why not take away that reduced scan angle and then maybe balance the + Damage around not having a reduced scan angle? Maybe now they add +2 or +3 to Shot Damage instead?

While for me it's a no-brainer choice (I'm only using Hawkeye), I have to point out that people know how to get a lot of value from Defender system. One particular example is using it in combination with Twin Turrets. This lets you set up a thorough killzone, e.g. covering Doretta. Not only bugs can be herded into this killzone using pheromone platforms, extra dmg per shot offsets the double ammo consumption somewhat. And then there is Turret Arc gimmick.

So yes, if you prefer drop-and-forget placement, MkII + Hawkeye is the way to go. Will remove stragglers and can focus larger enemies if you tag them.
But Defender is very viable if you are willing to cover other lines of approach yourself, using stickies or just by plugging them with platforms.

[Bongoboy]

Maybe they should just separate the + damage from the Focused Angle. Ideal would be a choice, Focused Angle or Longer Range as a new Tier choice.

I usually like to pop a Turret Down just so it can deal with the small pests. I have zero problem with anything bigger then Swarmers or Shockers. Yeah ... maybe Mactera are some problem, since the Shotgun and SMG are rather messy on longer range to hit stuff.

[vindicar]

Originally posted by Lithariel:

Maybe they should just separate the + damage from the Focused Angle. Ideal would be a choice, Focused Angle or Longer Range as a new Tier choice.

Then it's an clear upgrade (range) vs a mostly clear downgrade (angle). No, damage bonus needs to stay where it is. If you want to use it, you have to think your way around the limitation. if you can't/don't want to, there is a simpler but weaker alternative.

[Red Spot]

I really like the system as it is now and see no reason why it should be changed.
You take the reduced angle as a limitation since you want the damageboost, but that does not make the reduced angle a negative attribute.
I feel it is the combination of attributes that makes the modifier. They could remove the damage boost, but I do not think it should be a separate modifier (should at least be tested so it does not make sentries too powerful).

[King Fossil]

You not liking something doesn't mean it should be removed from the game. I don't like using sticky flames but that doesn't mean I think sticky flames should be deleted. Some upgrades are there because other people like them. Because the game wasn't designed for you personally.

[Footman]

The Hawkeye also has a target designator system used with the Laser Pointer. Helpful for singling out specific bugs.

[Chibbity]

Reduced angle is actually a plus in my book, gives me more control over what my turrets do and don't use their ammo on.

[Bongoboy]

Originally posted by vindicar:

Then it's an clear upgrade (range) vs a mostly clear downgrade (angle). No, damage bonus needs to stay where it is. If you want to use it, you have to think your way around the limitation. if you can't/don't want to, there is a simpler but weaker alternative.

I just made the suggestion, because seemingly "Waffe" prefers the Defender System ... for me the limited Focused Angle is also a clear downgrade ... I like the added damage (+5 per shot is huge) but the Focused Angle is so restrictive and mostly at the edge of unusable if you take into account that the Defender System also has lower range as well compared to the Hawkeye System.

And that's the point, I wanted to know from people who like the Defender System as to why they like it.
You state that "you have to think your way around the limitation" which is fair, but like I asked whats the point of a Modifier having negative bonuses ... that should be saved for Yellow Overclocks.

Originally posted by Red Spot:

I really like the system as it is now and see no reason why it should be changed.
You take the reduced angle as a limitation since you want the damageboost, but that does not make the reduced angle a negative attribute.
I feel it is the combination of attributes that makes the modifier. They could remove the damage boost, but I do not think it should be a separate modifier (should at least be tested so it does not make sentries too powerful).

You like the system as it is, and I think there is room to enhance it. All I want to do is discuss it and hear what other people that play DRG think about this.

The reduced angle is a negative attribute as it reduces the normal angle a turret has to the focused one. If it would in fact be an enhancement that trades one thing for another then it would reduce the angle but enhance the range. So no it [n]is negative.[/b]
Just like vindicar also said it.

If you read my opening post, I stated that most certainly the + Damage Bonus should not remain at +5 in the case the Focus Angle gets taken away.

Originally posted by King Fossil:

You not liking something doesn't mean it should be removed from the game. I don't like using sticky flames but that doesn't mean I think sticky flames should be deleted. Some upgrades are there because other people like them. Because the game wasn't designed for you personally.

Yeah you got a point there.
I understand that there are things that make sense and that also work ... but that I personally either not feel comfortable to use, or plainly dislike to use.
Just like you said here with the Sticky Flames.

Sticky Flames is actually a very good example, as before DRG 1.0 they where the go to build for the Flamer. Direct damage would not work(imbalanced) but Sticky Flames did more then enough damage to offset that.
Until GSG decided to move the damage from Sticky Flames over to the direct damage part, which in my eyes makes more sense(since you know, you douse the target with burning liquid VS just standing very very close to a campfire).

Even though now I feel all those Modifiers for the Flamer are useless ... I do not think they have to be changed since ... if you pick the right Overclock and build a Sticky Flame setup ... it still does work and pretty well. But it is a very defensive playstyle that needs some thinking ahead to get to work. Something I do not like personally.

The fact that DRG isn't designed to fit like a glove for me personally does not mean I can't ask other people what they think! As I said in the opening post, I want to know what other people think about this.
But I was expecting personal opinions ... not something a Lobbyist would tell a Politician ... trying to make something look bad without putting forward any real evidence it is.

Originally posted by Footman:

The Hawkeye also has a target designator system used with the Laser Pointer. Helpful for singling out specific bugs.

Yeah I know. That target designator with the added range turns the Hawkeye System for me way past the Defender System which has a narrow targeting angle and quite less range compared to the Hawkeye System.

What I wanted to know, was how many people clearly prefer Defender System over the Hawkeye System ... as for me it's a nobrainer.

[Bongoboy]

Originally posted by Chibbity:

Reduced angle is actually a plus in my book, gives me more control over what my turrets do and don't use their ammo on.

Do you prefer it over the Hawkeye System? If so do you also use the Double Turret? All of the time, or only sometimes?
And if only sometimes, for what occasion do you think the Defender System is better?

I understand that if you are in a tunnel, the Defender System, especially with the Twin Turrets, can have quite allot benefits. Crossing Fire, more damage ... but how do you know the game not puts you into a big open area? Especially in Salvage Operations? How do you know, the game not decides it be fun to swarm you with ... swarmers and Shockers.
And then the "Focused Angle" bites you.

[vindicar]

Well, you can have two turrets point at each other, and stand between them. Then you get good coverage on two sides out of four, and the zone next to you is a bug killing ground.

[Chibbity]

Originally posted by Lithariel:

Do you prefer it over the Hawkeye System? If so do you also use the Double Turret? All of the time, or only sometimes?
And if only sometimes, for what occasion do you think the Defender System is better?

I understand that if you are in a tunnel, the Defender System, especially with the Twin Turrets, can have quite allot benefits. Crossing Fire, more damage ... but how do you know the game not puts you into a big open area? Especially in Salvage Operations? How do you know, the game not decides it be fun to swarm you with ... swarmers and Shockers.
And then the "Focused Angle" bites you.

Yes, I do prefer it over Hawkeye, and yes I always run double turrets.

When in an open area, the trick is to place your sentries "outside facing in" instead of "inside facing out" if you know what I mean? (A reasonable distance from your position, with the arcs facing you.)

This way, the turrets will use their ammo for the most dangerous bugs; the ones who are getting close to you.

[RainingMetal]

As someone who likes to use the turret against large and small targets alike, and who plans out turret placement with care, I have little use for the Hawkeye system as the increased coverage tends to be redundant when I want to simply kill things. And I believe the system doesn't decrease the scan range, at least according to the store page, compared to not having any upgrades at all.

Then again, this was based off back when I used mini shells on the shotgun, which took care of small fry easily enough.

[ImaginaryDragon]

I am on Defender System the entire time, and always go with Gemini System (double turrets) due to how lackluster MK.II right now is

To give some numbers, Gemini system raw deals 6 damage a bullet, same for Hawkeye
Without ammo upgrade they have 515 bullets, with upgrade 605
With defender system each bullet deals 11 damage

MK.II system deals raw 8 damage a bullet, same for Hawkeye
Without ammo upgrade they have 425 bullets, with upgrade 525
With defender system each bullet deals 13 damage

So Gemini maximum raw damage (excluding weakpoint / armor mitigation) would be 3090 (no defender, no ammo upgrade) / 3630 (no defender, with ammo upgrade) / 5665 (defender, no ammo upgrade) / 6655 (defender with ammo upgrade)

MK.II on the other hand has 3400 (no defender, no ammo upgrade) / 4120 (no defender, with ammo upgrade) / 5525 (defender, no ammo upgrade) / 6695 (defender with ammo upgrade)

In this instance, with defender / gemini, the potential damage is basically the same as MK.II with defender, but the tiny amount of damage difference is completely overshadowed by the ability that having 2 turrets can bring (see EM Discharge, Turret Arc, and turret whip)

Also, if we look at swarmers, they have 14.4 HP on hazard 4 / 5, meaning that no matter what upgrades you take, it'd take at least 2 hits to kill the tiny buggers, thus rendering MK.II weaker at dispatching the ankle biters, and with hawkeye the Gemini system behaves even worse due to it costing 3 bullets to take down a swarmer.

If you use turret whip, it'd be better not to have your turret keep wasting ammo on something with the additional targeting range, so with weighing all the pros and cons I just think that Defender System with Gemini System is the best way to build engineer's turret.

[Bongoboy]

Originally posted by Chibbity:

Yes, I do prefer it over Hawkeye, and yes I always run double turrets.

When in an open area, the trick is to place your sentries "outside facing in" instead of "inside facing out" if you know what I mean? (A reasonable distance from your position, with the arcs facing you.)

This way, the turrets will use their ammo for the most dangerous bugs; the ones who are getting close to you.

Ah so you use double turrets. I guess the single turret doesn't work as well, does it?

And I know what you mean, placing the turrets like they are a sniper that is far away from the action, but snipes in.

Originally posted by ImaginaryDragon:

I am on Defender System the entire time, and always go with Gemini System (double turrets) due to how lackluster MK.II right now is

Yeah you also run gemini, but I don't think MKII is "lackuster", it works very well for what it does. It adds +2 damage per shot and adds range.

Originally posted by ImaginaryDragon:

Also, if we look at swarmers, they have 14.4 HP on hazard 4 / 5, meaning that no matter what upgrades you take, it'd take at least 2 hits to kill the tiny buggers, thus rendering MK.II weaker at dispatching the ankle biters, and with hawkeye the Gemini system behaves even worse due to it costing 3 bullets to take down a swarmer.

If you use turret whip, it'd be better not to have your turret keep wasting ammo on something with the additional targeting range, so with weighing all the pros and cons I just think that Defender System with Gemini System is the best way to build engineer's turret.

It is funny that you talk about swarmers HP, because just yesterday when I played the two weekly assignments, I took another look at my Scouts Deepcore GK2 setup. I seen, that I need to hit swarmers two times and checked how many HP they have, which is 14.4 in a 4 player H4 game.

I remember that from way before, when I was get closer in on my Driller with his Subata 120, where I choose High Velocity Rounds over Hollow-Point Bullets because it would push my damage to 15 per shot, for that very reason.

Since I religiously use the AI Stability Engine on my Scout with the DeepcoreGK2, which lowers it's damage to 13. Which is quite the hassle since I not want to loose 100 ammo cap by picking Increased Caliber Rounds over Expanded Ammo Bags. But since there is no other way to get to 15 damage a shot, I guess I will need to deal with swarmers using the alternate weapon.

As I see it, it depends what you want to do.
If you want to kill swarmers mainly, a good combo is LMG MKII and Hawkeye System ... which gives the turret 360° at 40m and (6+2)8 damage a shot. Two shots blow a swarmer away(16).
Taking Gemini System and Defender System reduces the scaning angle to ~160° but they do 11 damage a shot, which ... with the 90 added ammo is better VS Grunts and other middle sized enemies.

But for me it would make more sense if the Gemini System's main benefit is a 2nd turret and added ammo cap, vs LMG MKII which should add damage(to get to the same damage output as the Gemini System's has with its added ammo cap) and possibly a higher turret ammo cap then now.
The Defender System should compensate it's limited target angle, with longer range while the Hawkeye System could have a faster target acquisition and the ability to to follow orders(or try to target the small pests as base setting).