M1000 Classic is not a good enough weapon to consider swapping from the AR.

[Varagonax]

At its best, its a bad seconday. The damage increase on a focused head shot is nice, sure, but this is a horde mode game. You dont have the time to line up your shots, and it does PITIFUL damage against the weak points of praetorians and dreadnaughts.

I think the dps of the gun isnt high enough to warrant such a low ammo count as well as its super small clip.

I do believe its supposed to be a secondary over a primary, so as such it should do WAY more damage then what its doing.

Heres my proposed changes:
Double its base damage, lower the fire rate a tad, and keep its base ammo maximums
OR
Up the precision damage on a focused shot drastically, keep the fire rate, increase ammo count by 50%
OR
Keep damage values the same, increase clip size by double, and double the base ammo maximum.

As it stands the risk vs reward for playing with the m1000 classic is way to one sided to make it a good weapon... but it is fun. The theory is solid, but the implementation isnt.

Also... why design an iron sight into the gun if we cant use it... just saying.

Rock and Stone

[Syncourt]

Originally posted by Varagonax:

You dont have the time to line up your shots

Each to thier own. I think the M1000 is a great weapon personally, but I've grown up playing fast paced twitch shooters using railguns and bolt-action rifles as my favorite weapon, so the accuracy requirements don't bother me. On the contrary, I actually enjoy the rewarding feeling of landing them.

I use the fear mod on mine which gives you some extra room for lining up shots. All you need to do is shoot the closets one in the face, then target the next closest one that isn't retreating. It's good crowd control, does good damage to preat/dreads with focus shots and is killer for picking off flyers and spitters.

Practice makes perfect.

[Landor]

I feel like I should like it, but I really don't.

If it wasn't designed on using the foused shot thing, maybe I would...

[Varagonax]

Originally posted by Syncourt:

Originally posted by Varagonax:

You dont have the time to line up your shots

Each to thier own. I think the M1000 is a great weapon personally, but I've grown up playing fast paced twitch shooters using railguns and bolt-action rifles as my favorite weapon, so the accuracy requirements don't bother me. On the contrary, I actually enjoy the rewarding feeling of landing them.

I use the fear mod on mine which gives you some extra room for lining up shots. All you need to do is shoot the closets one in the face, then target the next closest one that isn't retreating. It's good crowd control, does good damage to preat/dreads with focus shots and is killer for picking off flyers and spitters.

Practice makes perfect.

I dont know what your doing differently but i have mine specced for max damage on focused weak spot damage and it took almost all of my ammo to kill the dang dreadnaughts in a t3 3 man squad elimination, and that was before I swapped to the akimbo uzis to do damage. It doesnt feel like its on par with other primaries or even secondaries for damage: Grenade launcher does huge single shot damage, driller pistol does decent dps to the point where you should use it exclusively outside swarms, gunner handcannon and burst pistol ect all feel like they do more damage then the m1000 does.

And on the topic of the iron sights I dont think you understand what an iron sight does in most video games. It should only raise the gun to your face and any zoom should be minimal (either way focus does zoom in a bit so your point feels moot), which really does help a third person shooter apply precision damage. Im not asking for a scope, it just seems weird to me that the precision rifle has a modelled iron sight and the focus only zooms in slightly and tightens the crosshairs. A design choice I'm sure but not one I particularly like.

As the only long range single shot precision weapon it does indeed feel like it falls short of both the old weapons and the new ones, regardless of its primary or secondary status, and my biggest issue is that what it can do, pretty much all other weapons do better.

[Varagonax]

Also, tell me a reason to bring it in over the assault rifle please. I bring the m1000 places because it feels like a good secondary to a primary dual submachine guns but I almost never use it for anything other then taking pot shots at leeches and spitters.

[Syncourt]

Originally posted by Varagonax:

It doesnt feel like its on par with other primaries or even secondaries for damage: Grenade launcher does huge single shot damage, driller pistol does decent dps to the point where you should use it exclusively outside swarms, gunner handcannon and burst pistol ect all feel like they do more damage then the m1000 does.

That's likely due to them being more combat focused classes than the scout is. The scout will always have lower damage output than the rest because he's so mobile. If he/your team doesn't have LoS of the weak spot, it takes him literally 2 seconds to reposition, shoot the weak spot and get him to expose it to your team. If your sole aim is to deal more damage, don't take the scout.

I don't know what the damage tables are with all the focus mods on, but it seems to be at least 150 damage per shot. So unless you're trying to play scout as a combat class - dealing with the dread all by yourself - it shouldn't take even near all of your ammo. Wait for the armor breaking classes to strip his armor at least if ammo is a problem.

What you should be focusing on as a scout is keeping that dread chasing you with his back turned to your team.

[Chibbity]

Originally posted by Varagonax:

Also, tell me a reason to bring it in over the assault rifle please. I bring the m1000 places because it feels like a good secondary to a primary dual submachine guns but I almost never use it for anything other then taking pot shots at leeches and spitters.

Try learning to aim, and to prioritize targets.

The M1000 is a very high skill floor weapon, if you can't hit at least 9/10 shots don't even bother.

That said, it's still basically a sniper rifle; and has the same limitations as a sniper rifle in any game; slow fire rate, lack of ammo, etc... of course the AR does most things better, that's kind of the idea behind an AR; jack of all trades, master of none. The M1000 is extremely specific at what it does, but if you can leverage it correctly, it's a very powerful and useful addition to the team.

[Varagonax]

Originally posted by Chibbity:

Originally posted by Varagonax:

Also, tell me a reason to bring it in over the assault rifle please. I bring the m1000 places because it feels like a good secondary to a primary dual submachine guns but I almost never use it for anything other then taking pot shots at leeches and spitters.

Try learning to aim, and to prioritize targets.

The M1000 is a very high skill floor weapon, if you can't hit at least 9/10 shots don't even bother.

That said, it's still basically a sniper rifle; and has the same limitations as a sniper rifle in any game; slow fire rate, lack of ammo, etc... of course the AR does most things better, that's kind of the idea behind an AR; jack of all trades, master of none. The M1000 is extremely specific at what it does, but if you can leverage it correctly, it's a very powerful and useful addition to the team.

Your assuming I dont play other shooters, and therefore suck at shooting weapons in video games.

I have hundreds, if not thousands, of hours in destiny one and two (both games lauded for their fantastic shooting mechanics might I add), borderlands 1,2 and the presequel, and various other shooters EACH, all of which I use scout rifles and snipers as my primary, almost to the exclusion of other weapon types in pve. Im not skilled enough (I will admit this) to take my sniping into a pvp match and confidently win matches, but I have more then enough experience with virtual guns in just those games alone that I can tell you that the m1000 doesnt compare.

I think it could be a number of things: Procedurally generated environments and poor pathing make hitting the one or two weak points a chore, the focus shot that gives you the damage that should make it viable to players with average or lower skills has a key difference in scopes or sights in that the pause to take another shot comes BEFORE the bullet is fired, shooting from the hip (it makes a difference, play borderlands with a scopeless sniper and try it while ads and without ads and tell me theres no performance difference), the lack of decent ammo economy even while its maxed, lack of damage to make up for the bad ammo economy, the fact that at its best its cc potential is scaring two bugs when you kill another (except your forgetting that your often not shooting one enemy you need to shoot dozens).... I could go on.

I tested it in hazard 4 to see how good it feels and at best, it feels meh in h3 and I wouldnt even go for it in t4 because I never had a chance to use the focus shot.
It is the only "single target precision" weapon in the game, so by that logic it is the best at what it does. But when the engineers grenade launcher and beam cutter can one shot spitters and praetorians, the drillers pistol and orb launcher (cant remember what its called) deal better dps, and the gunners handcannon and burst pistol deal better precision damage I'm left wondering why the scouts SNIPER rifle is a general downgrade over the assault rifle (which btw has a better multi target ttk then the sniper does if your wondering, which is arguably the best trait in a horde shooter like DRG). Im not asking for the scout to become a gunner 2.0, I just want the m1000 to feel better in the primary slot then it does. I have decidedly mixed feelings on the weapon; when Im not in a swarm, I like it for its utility. However, in a swarm, the gun feels sluggish and lackluster, which drives me to use the smgs almost exclusively.

This whole "Guy doesnt like a niche weapon and therefore must be bad at video games" mentality really erks me. I land my shots, I'm not the best but Im not quite average either, and irregardless my opinion should hold some weight before people go off on spouting how ♥♥♥♥ I must be at the game because they happen to like the weapon.

[Chibbity]

I play on Haz4 only, for about the last 200 hours.

M1000 is good. The problem exists between chair and keyboard.

Git gud? I really don't want whiners like you getting my gun buffed and turning it into FOTM.

(Btw; your admitted inability to snipe anywhere but PVE points to a lack of skill with what's called a "snap shot" or a "flick shot" which explains why you find the gun sluggish. If you want to be good with the M1000 that's a skill you'll need to work on.)

[Varagonax]

Originally posted by Chibbity:

I play on Haz4 only, for about the last 200 hours.

M1000 is good. The problem exists between chair and keyboard.

Git gud? I really don't want whiners like you getting my gun buffed and turning it into FOTM.

(Btw; your admitted inability to snipe anywhere but PVE points to a lack of skill with what's called a "snap shot" or a "flick shot" which explains why you find the gun sluggish. If you want to be good with the M1000 that's a skill you'll need to work on.)

Again, your assuming my skill. My flick shots are fine, I land my crits just fine. I have an issue with predicting human behaviour in games, typically by assuming that everyone does what I do and it ends up with me being punished bad. However, what your telling me is part of this thing called identity protection cognition as well as an ad hominem fallacy. You like the m1000 and it works for you, therefore nothing could be wrong with it, and people that tell you otherwise are therefore attacking your identity, which you must protect and since I cant be right else Im attacking your identity, I must suck and thats gotta be where my bad experiences are coming from.

I will admit very clearly here, the more I use it the better the gun feels, even if for me its only marginally but my issue isnt perfectly tied to how the gun feels (I have stated I like the gun it just doesnt feel right, and I can not factually state that its better overall then the assault rifle it replaces) its in the everything.

Maybe its just me being used to firing delay happening AFTER I've shot the gun, and not before. Similar mechanics are found in Destiny's fusion rifles, which have a short charge up before you fire, but Im fine with those guns. No issues in their use for me. Or maybe its the weird reticle tightening during the focus shot like a sphincter during a really spooky haunted house.

In every situation where the m1000 is good, another class has better options. Wanna do similar precision damage? Try the gunners handcannon or burst pistol, with the burst pistol feeling to me like the ammo economy is drastically better then the snipers. Like them long range shots that do massive damage? The engineers got you beat with the beam rifle and the grenade launcher, with lobbed shots coming from the grenade launcher and splash/aoe damage from either just outperforming the sniper. Like your cc capability alongside your damage? Driller has you beat with practically every alternative weapon outside of the basic pistol, which is more of a primary then the m1000 anyways, with better ammo economy, and better utility in general.

Ive played with or played as every weapon and every class in the game with just my friends, in hazard 3 with our less skilled friends, or hazard four when its my main squad. In every situation where I was playing my scout and the game rewarded my patience with good rng in the way of good enemy placements, good wave structure, and good map design I found (anecdotally of course, I have no actual numbers here) that in ever situation where the m1000 was good the assault rifle would do just as well, with the added benefit of being better for the larger swarms and just general dps. It also synergizes better with both the shotgun and dual pistols, and the ONE time I tried sniper shotgun I had more fun ziplining away from spiders then fighting them, mostly because half way through the mission we had 70 nitra and I was clean out of bullets.

Even If I played perfectly every time and only used the m1000 and the IFGs, not only do I get less kills at the end over my friends (even at one bullet per dead enemy shot), the rest of my performance from there would be dictated on whether or not we had enough nitra to resupply.

Just because being a good sniper fills your pants with warm goopy goodness doesnt make the weapon good overall, and whether or not your right or Im right I still firmly believe the weapon needs a good looking at. I do think I went a bit heavy handed with my suggestions on a fix, but I didnt intend for a buff. In my mind It was either less damage more bullets, or more damage but from crits passively and I may not have articulated it that well.

At this point I dont think yall are actually reading any of my addendums so meh. Think Im trash at the game, Im not. And if this is how the community reacts to constructive criticism Ill just Bite my tongue next time I think there is room for improvement.

[Khloros]

Just keep in mind the scout is not a brawler, you are a support character and a miner who happens to be able to shoot stuff.

[Varagonax]

Originally posted by Khloros:

Just keep in mind the scout is not a brawler, you are a support character and a miner who happens to be able to shoot stuff.

I do. I know my role is to gather minerals and plant lights and take out leeches and stuff, I leave the hardcore fighting to my friend the engineer, and If I wanna wade through the corpses of my enemies I'll hop on my gunner.

[Syncourt]

Originally posted by Varagonax:

Originally posted by Khloros:

Just keep in mind the scout is not a brawler, you are a support character and a miner who happens to be able to shoot stuff.

I do. I know my role is to gather minerals and plant lights and take out leeches and stuff, I leave the hardcore fighting to my friend the engineer, and If I wanna wade through the corpses of my enemies I'll hop on my gunner.

Then why say something as irrelevant as:

Originally posted by Varagonax:

In every situation where the m1000 is good, another class has better options.

I mean, durr! Of course they do. Do you really want scouts being so mobile and having that kind of firepower? I mean c'mon, what a rediculous thing to say.

Originally posted by Varagonax:

(anecdotally of course, I have no actual numbers here)

well try this then.
https://deeprockgalactic.gamepedia.com/Scout

There is your base weapon stats.

M1000 deals 55 damage per shot compared to 11 damage for the AR.
M1000 has 50 max ammo compared to 350 on the AR.
(M1000 has 5x damage on a standard shot while AR has 5x it's clip size.)
Focus shot deals a base of +50% damage without even upgrading it.
That's 82.5 damage per bullet on the M1000 vs. 11 damage for the AR.

Ammo Capacity
M1000 = 50 ammo = 4,125 focus fire damage capacity.
M1000 = "^" ammo = 2,750 damage capacity.
AR = 350 ammo = 3,850 damage capacity.

Fire Rate:
M1000 focus = 1 RoF = 82.5 DPS / 412.5 damage per clip / one 2.2 second reload every 5 seconds spent firing.
M1000 hip fire = 5 RoF = 275 DPS / 275 damage per clip / one 2.2 second reload in every 3.2 second spent firing.
AR = 7 RoF = 77 DPS / 275 damage per clip / one 1.8 second reload in every 3.5 seconds spent firing.

In the 3.5 seconds an ARs mag would last for at full spray, an M1000 could deal the same damage or more if the situation is ever called for and reload, having 0.3 seconds to spare. Or it could focus fire to maintain more ammo efficiency than the AR with slightly better DPS.

Consider accuracy too, which while it is not written in number it doesn't take a genius to know that the M1000 is likely to land more shots at medium-long range at full rate of fire.

I'm also very likely wrong in the way I'm reading focus speed as 1 sec per focus shot, as it does feel much faster in game and the mod to increase it's speed actually raises that stat up to 2. So rate of fire for the M1000 focus shots may be even faster than what is calculated above.

Now consider all those weak spot and focus damage upgrades the M1000 gets over the AR. I can't say how much DPS that provides as I don't know the exact damage values of weak spots. But I imagine it would raise the bar considerately in favor of the M1000 given that it has an extra 20% weak spot damage over the AR through mods alone while it's already ahead in terms of DPS and ammo efficiency in the hands of the right user.

Originally posted by Varagonax:

Again, your assuming my skill. My flick shots are fine, I land my crits just fine.

There is - quite simply put - no other possible explanation.