Alternate Traversal Tools

[JShark13]

I'll start this post by stating that I think that adding a new class would be extremely counter productive. Any new equipment items that could be added would be too similar to an existing item, too powerful, or too complex to be practical. Also, it would mess with the 4-man team structure too much.

Consequently, I think that instead of adding a 5th/6th/Xth class, that the current classes should be expanded on greatly. The best way to start this would be to give each class an alternate traversal tool, sort of like how the new weapon system works. Here's some of my ideas:

Gunner - Rope Gun:

The Rope Gun would function similarly to the existing Zipline Gun, but rotated 90 degrees. Instead of serving as horizontal transport, ropes would be used to move vertically. The catch is that only the ceiling end of the rope would be anchored, meaning that regardless of the players position when firing the rope, the rope would go straight up and down. The rope would be about 25-30 meters long, and a dwarf could endlessly hold onto the end, provided another dwarf doesn't push them off.

This could be used to safely desend into pits, or to quickly ascend a cliff-face. Now, looking at this idea, you might be think that existing Zipline Gun is arguably a superior version of this, which it arguably is. The devs could balance this by giving the Rope Gun more ammo, which would make it more useful for general exploration, while the Zipline Gun would be better for fast traversal.

Scout - Climbing Rope:

The Climbing Rope is a lot easier to explain if you've ever played Starbound. When used, you throw out a hook on a rope, which travels in an arch and will attach to the first bit of terrain it hits. Once the hook has anchored itself, the player can hold down the mouse button to "wind up" the rope, shortening the distance between themselves and the hook. To detach the hook, you would press the "e" button or switch to another weapon. The player can move around freely while the hook is attached, however they cannot move beyond the range of the rope.

Compared to the Grappling Gun, the Climbing Rope would have a slightly slower projectile, much slower retraction, and be affected by gravity. However, it gives the player fine control over the length of the rope and doesn't automatically retract, which would allow them to do all sorts of maneuvers like swinging from the rope (think spider man), use the rope as a safety line (think bungie jumping), or dangle from the ceiling to reach high-up resources.

Driller - Laser Drill:

The Laser Drill is essentially a longer ranged version of the normal Drill. It would be able to drill through rock at up to 10 meters, and could be upgraded to reach up to 20 meters. Now, in order to make this balanced, the Laser Drill would have heavy downsides. Firstly, it would have much faster heat generation and maybe slower heat disipation. This would mean that it wouldn't be able to drill for anywhere near as long as the standard Drill. Secondly, it would have less fuel/ammo, meaning you wouldn't be able to drill through as much stone. Finally, it would be less effective at damaging terrain. For example, it might take twice as long to drill through the same terrain compared to the normal Drill.

Compared to the normal Drill, the Laser drill would be a more specialised option, excelling at digging paths to high up materials, but less effective at drilling through large amounts of terrain quickly.

Engineer - ?:

I'll be honest, I've got not much in terms of ideas for the engineer. The platform gun is really powerful, so any alternative would need to be really potent to be worth using. I guess a platform gun with smaller platforms but more ammo could be an option, but that isn't all that interesting. If you've got any ideas, feel free to comment them.

[p47hfind3r]

Originally posted by JShark13:

I'll start this post by stating that I think that adding a new class would be extremely counter productive. Any new equipment items that could be added would be too similar to an existing item, too powerful, or too complex to be practical. Also, it would mess with the 4-man team structure too much.

I disagree. Looking at Vermintide which is a similar game in genre (waves of enemies, 4-man team, class-based), there are 5 classes and while they're not quite as varied as the ones in DRG, each has something unique to offer.

Your statement is also flawed in that of all the public matches I've played....I think 1 player per class was the least common thing to run into. So I think having 5 classes for only 4 players is fine. Especially when the strengths/weaknesses can be mitigated through good teamwork. A team without a gunner loses a lot of firepower...but they can still make do and they aren't doomed to fail.

That being said, I am in favour of alternate gear altogether, as it allows players to truly customize the way they play.

[Landor]

The utility tools are too essential to the classes now for any signifigant variety to be introduced to them, at least nothing that takes away or swaps functionality. The gunner is expected to have ziplines, the engineer is expected to have platforms, what have you.

As it stands, the alternate weapon choices aren't an issue, because the main function is the same, and the class-specific method of dealing damage is consistent. But utility tools go beyond dealing damage, they perform specific functions that players depend on, by introducing variety, you also introduce a random element. That gunner joining your mission may not be as useful, because while you could have really used a zipline, and your driller has handled any vertical movement like a champ, the gunner joined with "ropes" and the main utility of the class is pointless, you were just fine going up and down, you needed a zipline.

And as Wia mentioned, introducing new classes will just be overlapping the current classes, both causing the problem mentioned in the above paragraph, as well as ruining the four-player/four-class dynamic.

As a side note, I have been awake for twenty hours, and I have a cold. DOES ANY OF WHAT I WROTE MAKE SENSE?!?!

[p47hfind3r]

Originally posted by Wiawyr:

Your entire premise is based on the fallacy of false equivalence; DRG and Vermintide are not the same thing at all. One is simply running through pre-made corridors while fighting a horde, and the other is navigating procedurally-generated levels with more emphasis on movement and utility while also fighting hordes. Lacking one class is not going to completely cripple a team and prevent them from being able to progress entirely, but having one class of each type is the smoothest and most efficient composition for navigating the caves quickly and safely. The classes aren't simply bringing different levels of firepower as in Vermintide, but also different tools for navigation.

The current 4-class system is really excellent in its setup and effectiveness; there's nothing missing that a new class would need to bring to the table, just "what if?" bells and whistles trying to improve on one feature of a class and making that into a new class. Ropes? Sure, neat, add an accessory slot. A rope-based class? So it's a gunner with a different tool that now can't go horizontal, which an engineer or driller could already accomplish via the walls of the shaft.

That doesn't change the fact that team comp in DRG is flexible and lacking one class or having more than one of the other doesn't spell disaster for a mission. All I'm saying is that a fifth class doesn't break the game or mess with the comp, and as I said previously, I've played with weird team compositions more often than not.

My point with my response wasn't that we NEED another class, but merely advocating that a fifth class's existence wouldn't be 'counter-productive' or mess with how the current classes work together. And I agree with your point that one of each is one of the most reliable and efficient combos...but that's not to say there couldn't be an equally effective team if a 5th class offered something unique, that the current classes don't offer right now.

Also, you can't say DRG and Vermintide aren't similar. They are, plain and simple. They both use classes with varying individual strategies that allow a team to work together, they both feature mob-style enemies with stronger 'tank-like' enemies being occasional encounters, there are VERY similar missions, there are special enemies that aim to separate the players, etc. The biggest difference, like you said, is one uses pre-designed maps while the other is procedurally generated, with the latter also having an emphases on movement.

[JShark13]

Originally posted by Landor:

The utility tools are too essential to the classes now for any signifigant variety to be introduced to them, at least nothing that takes away or swaps functionality. The gunner is expected to have ziplines, the engineer is expected to have platforms, what have you.

I understand this, which is why a major part of my thought process with these alternates was for the new item to be able to provide similar utility to the existing item, while having differences that make them unique and not just a slight stat swap.

For example, my suggestion for the gunner's alternate, the Rope Gun, can be used for all the things the current ziplines do, as in can be used to safely ascend and descend cliffs without digging out blocks. However, ziplines are able to move the player horizontally and are thus more suitable for fast movement throughout a cave. However, the amount the gunner can carry is limited, and thus they often aren't used for general navigation, whereas the Rope Gun would carry more ammunition, so while it might take 2 ropes to cross a gap, you'd have more (maybe not twice as many, but definetely more).

Originally posted by Landor:

As it stands, the alternate weapon choices aren't an issue, because the main function is the same, and the class-specific method of dealing damage is consistent. But utility tools go beyond dealing damage, they perform specific functions that players depend on, by introducing variety, you also introduce a random element. That gunner joining your mission may not be as useful, because while you could have really used a zipline, and your driller has handled any vertical movement like a champ, the gunner joined with "ropes" and the main utility of the class is pointless, you were just fine going up and down, you needed a zipline.

While killing things is definetely not the main goal of DRG, I'd argue that it's a major aspect of some missions (i.e. Salvage), and that the different weapons have a noticiable, if not huge impact on the classes playstyles. This is most obvious with the scout, who goes from a generalist with an emphasis on long range to a dedicated marksman. Additionally, if you're playing a public game, random players joining already adds a random element. I've seen so many parties that were mostly scouts or gunners in the server browser.

Originally posted by Landor:

And as Wia mentioned, introducing new classes will just be overlapping the current classes, both causing the problem mentioned in the above paragraph, as well as ruining the four-player/four-class dynamic.

Yes, and that's why I'm making this. A lot of people seem to want a 5th class, and thus the devs might add a 5th class. It's removal from the updated roadmap is a good sign, but I want to make sure that community pressure doesn't lead to a 5th class by encouraging diversification of the existing ones.

Originally posted by Landor:

As a side note, I have been awake for twenty hours, and I have a cold. DOES ANY OF WHAT I WROTE MAKE SENSE?!?!

Don't worry, everything you wrote makes perfect sense. I may not necessarily agree with your points, but I definetely see where they're coming from. I mainly just like to see more variety in loadouts, and as it seems like the devs are probably going to add alternate traversal options, I want to make sure we don't end up with the alternates just being the existing tools with some minor tweaks, like "a grapple gun with twice the range and cooldown", as that's rather boring.