Tougher enemies (and some other stuff)

[Torres, The Devourer]

Good evening. I'm putting on my very serious try hard face despite being too bad at the game to play modded difficulties. I'd like to talk about tougher enemies and their effects on weapon builds and possibly even balance. I'd also like to brush up upon modded difficulties.

https://youtu.be/zoq7mch72qs?feature=shared
This video at 1:26:14-1:39:00 really interested me and makes me want to try tougher enemies some more. I highly recommend you watch it (or skim through it) to get a better understanding on where I'm coming from.

Furthermore, what further inspired me to make this thread was this reddit post about napalm hurricane in haz6x2 https://www.reddit.com/r/technicaldrg/comments/12g6y57/build_breakdown_vanilla_hurricane_modded_6x2/
And this video ranking all the OCs which seems to have some modded influence in it.
https://youtu.be/n7HeFa5ympg?feature=shared

Now, this isn't a response thread or anything like that, rather it is a way to explain some feeling I've been torn on when making a build and even when making future possible balance changes.

Have you ever heard of "trickle down balance"? It's an idea I originally heard about in an uncle Dane video long ago on competitive weapon balance, and the idea goes like this: If it is balanced for top level play, then it will also be balanced for lower levels of play. I subscribe to this idea very strongly because it makes perfect sense to me. Why it matters is that I originally planned to test out my hurricane builds on haz 5+ more bugs and aggressive enemies, but now I am considering doing it with tougher enemies as well. If a build can do well against tough enemies, then it should work well for all enemies, right? Like with sticky fuel you can just shut down waves of grunts, and this becomes especially apparent on more bugs. However, now the bugs are tougher, and you need to change your strategy to deal with it. Sounds cool to me!

Hell, I just though of another example. For all it's issues, I love the dark, My favorite build uses TLC because I don't like how EVERY SINGLE OC has something to do with heat generation. I just want to shoot the damn thing! And TLC helps me do that. But on tougher enemies, I was doing diddly ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ against grunts and it painted me to see. Get what I'm trying to say here?

Additionally, there is the idea that some OCs are better or worse in modded difficulties and haz 5 (especially haz 5+). The best example of this is probably bullet hell. Now, I think it sucks in the base game, but it is apparently very good in modded difficulties (and perhaps more bugs haz 5+). Fire spreading is another strong mechanic that gets better with more bugs. The hurricane thread I linked uses the clean OCs in conjunction with napalm rounds. Hell, in that same thread they take both AoE radius and damage for their stun build. This was strange to me because you want to combine the AoE mods with the AoE mods and direct mods with the direct mods, but I guess apparently not here! They also say that napalm is bad on JFH (which is true, don't use napalm on JFH), but also on minelayer. I thought minelayer was the only OC that was good with napalm (although cluster rockets might also be good) but apparently not in haz 6x2? It's very confusing.

I'm trying to be the best dwarf I can be, and I want my hurricane guide to be perfect. Sure, It may not be as popular as a youtube video, but I want all of my builds, whether its for the hurricane, or bolt shark, or shard, or whatever; to be the best it can be.

Alright, that's all. This is a VERY IMPORTANT thread to me, and I would like the best comments you got. Thank you for your time and have a nice day.

[Frisky]

Originally posted by Mark, The Devourer:

Have you ever heard of "trickle down balance"? It's an idea I originally heard about in an uncle Dane video long ago on competitive weapon balance, and the idea goes like this: If it is balanced for top level play, then it will also be balanced for lower levels of play.

oh god not the tf2 competitive community PTSD flashbacks, anything but that.

while I do agree balancing for hazard 5 at the very least is generally a good idea, considering how much damage the tf2 competitive community did to overall item balance I strongly disagree with this mindset/idea (one really good example is how the base jumper was absolutely mauled into usability and yet it's STILL banned in 6s, thanks for that comp players)

more specifically I think that balancing for a very small minority of your playerbase that players basically a different game is a volatile and reckless thing to do, this is less relevant in DRG since all the hazard levels are still the same game at it's core but in tf2 competitive and casual are so different that balancing for competitive is ignoring 90% of your playerbase and that balance is NOT going to translate over properly between either format, you either balance for comp or you balance for casual, the two are not similar enough to where "oh just balance for comp, it'll be fine for casual too lol"

I'm gonna back to DRG tho, as much as I wanna scream to the high heavens about how much i dislike competitive tf2's awful changes and how much they ruined the game for me this is the DRG discussions

I also don't think weapons should be balanced for full haz 5+ specifically, haz 5 plus is meant to be really hard and making the weapons balanced for it would detract from the intention of haz 5+ being a challenge while also making every weapon absurdly overpowered on anything lower than that

the OC guide me and my group manages still uses haz 5 as a base for what works and what struggles, I don't see a reason to adjust every OC for haz 5 plus at this time

besides, haz 5 is always said to be one of the least played difficulties so you can imagine haz 5+ is likely an even smaller chunk of the playerbase (the server browser in my area reflects this decently, maybe 70% of hosted games run vanilla H5 and the rest actually running haz 5 plus only run more enemies or sometimes 1 tick of something else)

TL;DR: balancing for high-level play only works if the game is similar across all levels, competitive tf2 bad

[Chibbity]

Originally posted by Frisky:

tf2 bad

Yes.

[kestrel]

Originally posted by Frisky:

snip

ordinarily i would agree that balancing exclusively for high level play is bad (♥♥♥♥ uncle dane he's a moron), but the difference is that DRG is a PVE game that also has multiple difficulty options

the argument that balancing for H5 will make the game "too easy" for lower difficulties is stupid because A) the game is already extremely easy on anything below H4, B) weapon builds don't matter in the slightest until you start playing H5, and C) if the game does somehow become too easy on lower difficulties people can just play H5/H5+

since H5 is the starting point to where you have to actually start caring about what you use, it's what the game should be balanced around. you can already use anything you like on H4 and below and that won't change if H5 became balance standard

i agree that H5+ shouldn't be the standard for weapon balance though, primarily because it's too fluid and there's no clearly defined standard. i'm sure everybody would agree that 2222 shouldn't be the standard, but then where do we draw the line? there's too many variables

[kestrel]

Originally posted by Chibbity:

Originally posted by Frisky:

tf2 bad

Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBCcM6GVLOU

[Chibbity]

Originally posted by kestrel:

Originally posted by Chibbity:

Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBCcM6GVLOU

I lol'ed IRL.

[Frisky]

Originally posted by Chibbity:

Originally posted by Frisky:

tf2 bad

Yes.

I mean thats not exactly what i wrote but yes that too

idk how I survived so many hours of that game, I never wanna see it again for as long as I live

Originally posted by kestrel:

ordinarily i would agree that balancing exclusively for high level play is bad (♥♥♥♥ uncle dane he's a moron), but the difference is that DRG is a PVE game that also has multiple difficulty options

I probably should have also specified that, DRG not being PVP means balance takes a simpler approach to something like PVP, and DRGs difficulties being relatively the same game with stat tweaks means balance for H5 wouldn't cause harm to lower difficulties

Originally posted by kestrel:

the argument that balancing for H5 will make the game "too easy" for lower difficulties is stupid because A) the game is already extremely easy on anything below H4, B) weapon builds don't matter in the slightest until you start playing H5, and C) if the game does somehow become too easy on lower difficulties people can just play H5/H5+

I mean that specifically when mentioning H5+ I don't think balancing for H5 would make lower difficulties too easy since they don't do anything as extreme as H5+ with all modifiers, sorry if that wasn't clear, most of what I say regarding "this doesn't work" applies specifically to TF2
most of the stuff in the post I made probably wasn't totally clear I was in a total rage over tf2 and the irreparable damage the competitive scene has done to the game with their """"Improvements""""

Originally posted by kestrel:

since H5 is the starting point to where you have to actually start caring about what you use, it's what the game should be balanced around. you can already use anything you like on H4 and below and that won't change if H5 became balance standard

agreed

Originally posted by kestrel:

i agree that H5+ shouldn't be the standard for weapon balance though, primarily because it's too fluid and there's no clearly defined standard. i'm sure everybody would agree that 2222 shouldn't be the standard, but then where do we draw the line? there's too many variables

thats a fair point, I was mostly thinking about H5+ all modifiers but if people start trying to set a standard for balance across something specific like "oh H5+ with more enemies only should be the standard" that would muddy things up more, sticking to H5 vanilla being the "balanced" difficulty makes things a lot easier and more clear for people to discuss on

[kestrel]

Originally posted by Frisky:

I probably should have also specified that, DRG not being PVP means balance takes a simpler approach to something like PVP, and DRGs difficulties being relatively the same game with stat tweaks means balance for H5 wouldn't cause harm to lower difficulties

the problem with "trickle down balance" is that top level play in PVP games is often very different to what %99 of what the general playerbase are doing but in DRG it's all just stat tweaks as you say
there's no difference between H1 and H5 (even H5+) besides the enemies having better stats, mechanically speaking the game is identical regardless of hazard level. the way you play the game, complete objectives and fight enemies remains the same

to be fair, i think the opinions of lower-level players should still be considered, in the same way solo play should be considered, but neither of these audiences should be explicitly catered to. majority rule isnt always correct

I mean that specifically when mentioning H5+ I don't think balancing for H5 would make lower difficulties too easy since they don't do anything as extreme as H5+ with all modifiers, sorry if that wasn't clear, most of what I say regarding "this doesn't work" applies specifically to TF2
most of the stuff in the post I made probably wasn't totally clear I was in a total rage over tf2 and the irreparable damage the competitive scene has done to the game with their """"Improvements""""

yeah sorry i shouldve made it clearer that i knew you werent specifically making that argument. there are a lot of people who do though, unfortunately so i felt it was worth addressing

I mean thats not actually what i wrote but yes that too

idk how I survived so many hours of that game, I never wanna see it again for as long as I live

the state of nu-TF2 today makes me so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sad man, i met so many of my friends and even the love of my life on that game and now it's a shambling corpse being feasted upon by maggots who call you "toxic" for expecting a billion dollar corporation to show better support for their older products

it's easy to point fingers at the bots but the problems started at the meet your match update, and were visible as early as gun mettle
competitive play ♥♥♥♥♥♥ the game so hard and all the piece of ♥♥♥♥ ecelebs who kept insisting it was the game's "future" sure shut up quick once they realised what kind of damage had been done, i cannot believe anyone would be stupid enough to think a decade old video game could turn into the world's biggest esport overnight

[Torres, The Devourer]

well. now this thread makes me feel kinda sad. It went from balance to tf2.
However, It's really great to see such an insightful conversation here, and I enjoy reading it. Although, I would still like a tl:Dr on what I should do. I know frisky (hi) already stated:

Originally posted by Frisky:

TL;DR: balancing for high-level play only works if the game is similar across all levels, competitive tf2 bad

but with the expanded discussion here (as in, the one frisky and kestrel had together) the message I'm getting is "yeah, testing builds and balancing around haz 5 is fine, but not Haz 5+ because there is too much to account for"
and I assume modded difficulties are out of the question because, well, they're modded and not part of the base game made by gsg.

Also, should I test allmy builds at regular haz 5? because I've been playing a lot of haz 5+ more bugs and aggressive enemies.

To throw my two cents into to the tf2 part of the discussion (probably shouldn't have brought it up- I feel kinda silly now) is:

Originally posted by Frisky:

oh god not the tf2 competitive community PTSD flashbacks, anything but that.

I have a similar issue, but instead of the game itself (without tf2 I might not even be here on steam, let alone the same person I am today!), it's the steam forums. Oh god. The TF2 steam forums combined with my stupid middle school brain was an awful combination. I can't even fathom logging back onto the tf2 steam forums again. Only in my worst nightmares. I've come a long way in my steam forums journey. From TF2 to L4D2 to Spelunky 2, before finally finding my place at DRG.

[Nehara]

Is this a TF2 hate thread? I don't really get it
Neither DRG nor TF2 have tight balance as far as player power is concerned, and they don't have competitive scenes where top-level players contribute measurable data for devs to make tuning passes around the esports side of the game. Both are casual games where you log in, frag or do some missions without being concerned about any metagame aspects. That is a huge strength of those games, but it doesn't mean they can't be played seriously by those who want to explore the considerable skill ceilings.

OP, why don't you just make your builds for the difficulty that you like to play at? This game doesn't have a consensus on what difficulty is considered baseline anymore, and below 5+ anything is playable. There aren't OCs that are consistently good at 5+ but bad at 3. Bullet Hell is bad, minigun is for ST missions only. If you're writing an "OC Guide for 5+ 8/8" then you should test your builds at 5+ 8/8.

Comparing 6x2 to 8/8 is silly because they are hard for different reasons. While I don't think that the guy in the video is entirely wrong about Tough Enemies, he completely disregards the fact that in an FPS game, shooting your weapon and having it feel like it does no damage is widely considered to be bad. You also have to keep pugging in mind - doing 8/8 solo or with a highly experienced premade is fine and you can also solo carry most 6/8 pug lobbies if you sweat hard enough. However, carrying an 8/8 pug lobby through an escort or salvage mission without others pulling their weight is going to be downright impractical, specifically due to Tough Enemies.

[Raz'Hikel]

too long didnt read

[kestrel]

Originally posted by Raz'Hikel:

too long didnt read

https://youtu.be/sJNK4VKeoBM

[Uriziel]

Not really a fan of the idea of balancing games strictly around top levels of play and mentioning TF2 in this context is kinda funny considering just how much it suffered from Valve trying to cater to competitive players. Not everything has to be equally viable on every difficulty and it's okay if some things fall behind on Haz 5 and higher. It's the ultimate challenge, after all.

[zverozvero]

It does not matter that game could be won and builds are not challenged for hazard below or including H5. Guns must be fun to use on lower difficulties too and H3, 4 and 5 have very different bug density and speed. Dots and aoes just wont perform if balanced purely for H5 let alone 5+.

[Torres, The Devourer]

Alright. So putting balance aside, builds should be tested on haz 5 and NOT haz 5+. Furthermore, when making build and OC rankings/comparisons modded difficulties should not be taken into account, but haz 5+ can maybe?

[zverozvero]

Right. Idea of balancing for 5+ was so scary (yep, now i reread it wasnt there) that i completely skipped the point.
Builds tested for 5+ would work on anything easier and be prepared for worst of it so as core of perfect guide that would be perfect. Adding alternatives that are not as minmaxed for juking 2x horde of 2x fast and durable enemies is more of fun stuff bonus.