Enemy Health

[TheBlueBomber343]

- THE GOOD -

I've really enjoyed the way a lot of the new enemies have been handled in recent updates. Most of them are fairly low health, but almost require you to actually pay attention to them if you want to kill them.

Some examples would be: Scalebramble, Spreader, and Stingtail.


- THE BAD -

However, after so many great additions (Except the Barrage), it's hard not to see where some enemies are... Less than ideal.

Some examples of these would be: Spitballer, Barrage, Goo Bomber, and Oppressor

Most of these just feel a bit too bullet-spongy to me. Like, sure, there are ways to kill them all pretty quickly, but even if you can kill them fast with whatever build you're using, they're still just not very fun in my opinion.

I'd say the devs need to stay away from bullet-sponge enemies in favor of having more interesting glass-cannon style enemies like we've been getting recently.

[Footman]

You can also shoot Spits like in an arcade gun game. Goo Bombers only damage you with a direct spit far as I can tell. Oppressors are meant to be tanks, but there are ways to bypass the defense like explosives, Neurotoxin, Plasma and Seeker Rounds.

[phenir]

Escrito originalmente por Footman:

Oppressors are meant to be tanks, but there are ways to bypass the defense like explosives

No. Do not spam explosives at the oppressor, they have ridiculous resistance to them. Really annoying seeing a new player blow all their grenades to do basically nothing to one while endangering anyone trying to get behind it to actually kill it. Just shoot them in the butt like normal people. Or power attack them, especially if you have damage power attack. They take 50% more damage from melee attacks.

[603bill]

I find Goo bombers annoying because their weakpoints dont last nearly long enough to actually kill it. Once their gone you can only spam shots into its face or hope it comes low enough to melee it. It'd be nice if it got a permanent weakpoint added somewhere.

[Dollop of Mayo]

Enemy diversity is important, making everything a glass cannon would be awful and boring. Different enemies require different approaches to kill them.

If you're having trouble with an enemy, it's probably because your build is bad against them, and that's fine, not all builds are good against all enemies. I play solo, so this can be a pain if I'm just bad at taking down Oppressors but kill everything else quick, but builds shouldn't be 100% amazing in all circumstances.

If you're playing with others, then hopefully somebody else will have a gun that's good at dealing with the thing you struggle with.

[Insano-Man]

Escrito originalmente por 603bill:

I find Goo bombers annoying because their weakpoints dont last nearly long enough to actually kill it. Once their gone you can only spam shots into its face or hope it comes low enough to melee it. It'd be nice if it got a permanent weakpoint added somewhere.

This is more a problem of using the wrong weapon. I can't say exactly what the stats are that trigger it, but I know that certain weapons pop weakpoints faster than others without actually doing as much damage.

For example, if I fire a breach cutter at a goo bomber, it usually takes off the sacks without doing a whole lot of harm. Meanwhile, if I light it up with a volatile bullets Subata, I can sometimes kill it before I even break a single sack.

This leads me to think it's bonus damage VS raw damage, but I won't say anything for certain. Likewise, this applies to just about anything with a destructible weakpoint, like bulk detonators.

[Victor]

Would agree goo bombers are tanky enough it can become annoying.
But, that is kind of their point. They're devoted shot-makers, for slashes, other mactera and the rest of the bugs. By themselves, they are less a threat than a mactera spawn.
They're meant by design to be annoying.

If the typical spawn ratio was larger I could see it being a problem, but speaking generally, they tend toward being an uncommon bug.

Plus I like the way they die.

[Bookslayer10]

I'm going to be a bit annoying by pointing this out, but this really proves my point about how Gunner brings valuable sustained damage to the team like I said in that thread about ziplines a while ago.

Spitballers, Barragers, Goo Bombers, Oppressors, all of these enemies need sustained single target damage to take out which Gunner excels at. When you have a minigun, nothing in the game feels like a bullet sponge. If you were playing a class with less sustained single target - such as Driller - you would find these enemies tough to take down efficiently.

[LT2483]

Escrito originalmente por Dollop of Mayo:

Enemy diversity is important, making everything a glass cannon would be awful and boring. Different enemies require different approaches to kill them.

This. Every notable enemy has a new way that you have to deal with it, and that it can deal with us. And then when they come together, that's where the fun comes in; Moving about, picking targets, dodging attacks.

Are some enemies spongier? Yes. But that's the point. They are tanks. Large, slower moving or stationary, high health targets. Are they aren't even that spongy, they all go down fairly fast when hit right. The game is a horde shooter, after all. The only enemies that need true sustained damage are bosses, and that is good design.

Escrito originalmente por Bookslayer10:

Spitballers, Barragers, Goo Bombers, Oppressors, all of these enemies need sustained single target damage to take out which Gunner excels at.

I'm going to disagree here. I think those enemies are the perfect example of when burst damage is needed - notable threat, you get in position, quickly blast them away, then get into a better position to deal with everything else.

That said, I'll agree that gunner is still good for them, because all his secondaries have good burst potential. I know every time I see an oppressor, my secondary is coming out, regardless of which I'm using.

[MrPurple33]

Escrito originalmente por Insano-Man:

For example, if I fire a breach cutter at a goo bomber, it usually takes off the sacks without doing a whole lot of harm. Meanwhile, if I light it up with a volatile bullets Subata, I can sometimes kill it before I even break a single sack.

Showing Yet Again,
'Bata Is Better™

[MrPurple33]

Escrito originalmente por Bookslayer10:

When you have a minigun, nothing in the game feels like a bullet sponge.

Well, Technically Those Enemies Are STILL Bullet Sponges-
But Gunner With The Minigun Has Even More Bullets Then They Can Handle

(Spins Minigun Barrel)
"Brrrrr" [clank]

[Derpykat5]

If every enemy is a glass cannon then there's never a reason to take burst damage builds.

If there's never a reason to take burst damage builds, there's no point in making the sacrifices necessary in taking them (mainly that a vast majority of burst damage builds don't do nearly as well against crowds or glass cannons).

If there's no point to taking burst damage builds, it unnecessarily hurts build diversity.

If every enemy is a lightweight cannon fodder that puts out a lot of damage, all the enemies will start to feel samey.

If all the enemies start to feel samey, combat starts to feel samey.

Oppressors, Goo Bombers, and the Spitballer family are partially unique and special enemies because they take more than two seconds to kill (sometimes). The Oppressor in particular is specifically designed to be super tanky and hard to kill to disrupt defensive setups and punish pure AoE. They, along with the Goo Bomber, Spitballers, and a few other notable tough enemies like Menaces, Bulk Detonators, and Shellbacks are refreshing to encounter because they take more concerted effort than just clicking left mouse at them a few times and avoiding their on-death effects.

[Bookslayer10]

Escrito originalmente por LT2483:

Escrito originalmente por Bookslayer10:

Spitballers, Barragers, Goo Bombers, Oppressors, all of these enemies need sustained single target damage to take out which Gunner excels at.

I'm going to disagree here. I think those enemies are the perfect example of when burst damage is needed - notable threat, you get in position, quickly blast them away, then get into a better position to deal with everything else.

That said, I'll agree that gunner is still good for them, because all his secondaries have good burst potential. I know every time I see an oppressor, my secondary is coming out, regardless of which I'm using.

Well, it depends. Spitballers can be taken out fast with precision hits to the weakpoint or something like a Breach Cutter, but if there's 3 of them in a room you are going to want the sustained fire of a minigun to cut each one down. If you try and rely on just burst damage, you'll run out of magazine or ammo. Same with dealing with Barrage Infectors. Goo bombers can be killed quickly with certain burst damage builds, but they really aren't that dangerous on their own, and they have a ton of health if their weakpoints are prematurely popped. In that case, being able to kill them through bodyshots helps a lot in dealing with them quickly. Oppressors are also very low priority in a swarm due to how they generally can't harm you directly. I find having high single target to reliably bring them down without running out of ammo is the best thing to have when fighting them. Elephant rounds, Impact Axes, or Hyper Propellant can do a lot of damage fast, but DPS and ammo efficiency drops pretty low over a long fight compared to Gunner primaries.

[kworpy]

???the oppressor is supposed to be tanky?? what do you think it's supposed to be? praetorian with more armor?

[Zargothrax]

Citing the stingtail as an example of good enemy balance is kind of silly. Citing the oppressor as en example of bad enemy balance is also pretty silly.

[Chibbity]

Escrito originalmente por Zargothrax:

Citing the stingtail as an example of good enemy balance is kind of silly. Citing the oppressor as en example of bad enemy balance is also pretty silly.

This^