Cave Leeches and The Design of Grab Attacks.

[[ATG] Derrick770]

Cave Leeches, they hang from ceilings, they grab unsuspecting dwarfs and fill them with holes. I have been playing for a little bit now, mostly solo, and have come to think that Cave Leeches are not well designed in the context of a grabbing enemy. In solo specifically, getting grabbed by the leech is often a free down (especially if Bosco is preoccupied). This alone seems pretty bad, but this is not the main crux of the issue for me. The Cave Leech makes no sound (at least none that I can hear), is on the ceiling, is somewhat small, and is in dark caves like the rest of the enemies. I am going to compare this enemy to an enemy in this game and another co-op FPS with grabbing enemies. Firstly, in DRG there is a few other enemies that can grab you, but all of these are well telegraphed and (usually) don't result in death. The most prominent grabber is the Mactera Grabber, which makes a distinctive noise before flying towards the player, giving them time to recognize the presence of the grabber and eliminate them before getting grabbed. Why does the Mactera Grabber, a much bigger and noticeable enemy have a sound cue, but the Cave Leech doesn't? We can also look at another Co-op game where most enemies have a grab attack, Left 4 Dead. In that game, every special infected that can grab you have identifiable noises that survivors can hear before being grabbed. Some of these infected can instantly kill survivors in certain scenarios, but this feels fair because of the infected's telegraphed noises and mostly consistent levels. Further, the special infected are bigger targets than their common counterparts. By contrast, with no noise cues, small nature, and a procedurally generated level, the Cave Leech feels unfair, especially in solo.

[Frisky]

normally the cave leech does have a sound cue of hissing but it's been super inconsistent from a bug introduced awhile back, I still seem to be experiencing it myself

use heightened senses is my recommendation, atleast until (if ever) the sound gets fixed and becomes consistent again

[Gamertime]

not hearing leech is a bug i believe

[Ser Pounce]

Just look up.

[[ATG] Derrick770]

Originally posted by Ser Pounce:

Just look up.

Having to constantly look up because of bad design is not a good thing. Instead of having the player have to constantly look up due to a lack of telegraphing on a lethal grab attack, instead sound cues or other telegraphs should be added. Left 4 dead did grab attacks right and so does DRG for the most part, why are cave leeches the exception?

[impetus_maximus]

i had a funny grab yesterday. leach grabbed me, but i got stuck on a stalactite and it couldn't injure me. xD wish i had recorded it.

Originally posted by Ser Pounce:

Just look up.

good advice. i also found that maxing out the turret range helps a bunch.

[Ser Pounce]

Originally posted by ATG Derrick770:

Originally posted by Ser Pounce:

Just look up.

Having to constantly look up because of bad design is not a good thing. Instead of having the player have to constantly look up due to a lack of telegraphing on a lethal grab attack, instead sound cues or other telegraphs should be added. Left 4 dead did grab attacks right and so does DRG for the most part, why are cave leeches the exception?

As other people have pointed out, this is a bug.
Regardless, they only emit sound when they're closing in on you. Meanwhile, they literally glow bright red when they just start locking on you.

Just look up at a 45° angle when moving up in a cave, it's really not that hard, especially against an enemy that cannot move.

[Hipnox]

Honestly, I find them to be a non issue, even in single.

On Haz4 even if they grab me, 9 times out of 10 Bosco manages to kill it before it kills me.

You can see it and hear it. Also, Heightened Senses make them trivial.

If you really are having issues with them, equip Heightened Senses on all your single player builds

[Chibbity]

Cave Leech not making noises sometimes is a bug (they make a hissing noise when working correctly), which will get fixed eventually; run Heightened Senses if you are having trouble.

[[ATG] Derrick770]

Originally posted by Ser Pounce:

Originally posted by ATG Derrick770:

Having to constantly look up because of bad design is not a good thing. Instead of having the player have to constantly look up due to a lack of telegraphing on a lethal grab attack, instead sound cues or other telegraphs should be added. Left 4 dead did grab attacks right and so does DRG for the most part, why are cave leeches the exception?

As other people have pointed out, this is a bug.
Regardless, they only emit sound when they're closing in on you. Meanwhile, they literally glow bright red when they just start locking on you.

Just look up at a 45° angle when moving up in a cave, it's really not that hard, especially against an enemy that cannot move.

Well if the no sound cue is a bug it should be fixed, then this post becomes irrelevant. But until then, having to look up constantly because of one singular enemy that does not even appear on every mission is just dumb and bad design.

[Cursed Hawkins]

Originally posted by Ser Pounce:

As other people have pointed out, this is a bug.
Regardless, they only emit sound when they're closing in on you.

Also just something to note, if you can hear the Cave Leech's snake like hissing, it's already too late because by the time you react to that noise you're already grabbed, this is why having a Scout to LIGHT UP THE CEILING is valuable because the darkness is their one advantage, something a Scout takes away.

[Chibbity]

Originally posted by ATG Derrick770:

Well if the no sound cue is a bug it should be fixed, then this post becomes irrelevant. But until then, having to look up constantly because of one singular enemy that does not even appear on every mission is just dumb and bad design.

Bugs are not intentional, and therefore not "by design" therefore; it can't be "bad design."

[Qua2ar]

This game is filled with bugs.

[[ATG] Derrick770]

Originally posted by Chibbity:

Originally posted by ATG Derrick770:

Well if the no sound cue is a bug it should be fixed, then this post becomes irrelevant. But until then, having to look up constantly because of one singular enemy that does not even appear on every mission is just dumb and bad design.

Bugs are not intentional, and therefore not "by design" therefore; it can't be "bad design."

Bugs are indeed not "by design" but they can still be evaluated from a design perspective. Many mechanics in games have originated as bugs, but from a design perspective they make the game more fun or better. For example, rocket jumping in TF2 dates back to a bug in earlier games but is now a foundational mechanic. With this in mind, even with the bug present, I can still call the cave leeches bad from a design perspective.

[Bookslayer10]

Remember that this is a game designed for Co-op first, as explicitly stated by the devs. Cave leeches promote sticking together in multi player and not wandering off by yourself. They can be frustrating in solo play because you only really can rely on yourself, and keeping one eye on the ceiling when you enter a new cave.

They are still supposed to have a sound cue, which can be reliably used to kill the leech if you have good reaction time.

[SoulSkull]

One is confusing game design for game development. Either follow the advice given to you or come up with your own solution